Are religious folk moronic in nature?

It would be misleading to that think only a high level of intelligence is relevant in the spiritual life. A very intelligent person can be involved in what Jesus called "evil reasonings". Oh, they can reason alright. But they have evil reasonings which lead to sins against God and man.

"And He said, that which goes out of man, that defiles man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil reasonings, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, blasphemy, arrogance, foolishness. All these wicked things proceed from within and defile the man." (Mark 7:21-23)

To Jesus, the level of intelligence is not the only necessary thing to a proper human life. A very intellligent person can reason his way into fornication and adultery. He can use his logic to defile his own character with blasphamy, thefts, arrogance and foolishness. Walking in the light of God's word causes you to stop and ask yourself "Exactly WHAT am I reasoning here?"

Einstien was no moron. Yet he reasoned his way into unfaithfulness to his first wife. Many people in positions which require great intelligence have used they darkened minds to reason themselves into foolish sins, defiling thier reputation and character.

The Bible warns that man's fallen mind is damaged by sin and can call good evil and evil good:

"Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! " (Isaiah 5:20)

People who have keen minds can ruin their lives and others by "the deceitfulness of sin". They are deceived even in their intelligent minds to reason away their sins. If they do not repent to be saved by Jesus they will one day wake up, bright intelligence and all, in the punishment of damnation. They will realize that their intelligent but deceived and unrepented minds have led them to that destiny. But it will be too late then.

The time to turn the mind to Jesus Christ is while you have a chance, now.

Our minds, regardless of how smart, are damaged by our sins. We need healing of the mind from Jesus.

In the light of Jesus a person will draw his mind back from sinful thoughts like a man pulling his hand from a fire. The true nature of the deceitfulness of sinning is exposed in the light of Christ. And in Christ he receives strength to draw the mind back from all the darkness of his evil reasonings.

Originally posted by jaywill
It would be misleading to that think only a high level of intelligence is relevant in the spiritual life. A very intelligent person can be involved in what Jesus called [b]"evil reasoning". Oh, they can reason alright. But they have evil reasonings which led to sins.[/b]

What if the ecclesiastical technocrats who cobbled together the Holy Bible were, as you put it, '...involved in what Jesus called "evil reasoning"'? The addition of The Book Of Revelation, in particular, smacks of a self -serving obfuscation of Jesus's own crystal clear message, enabling only those who "got" Revelation - an achievement exclusively defined by the hierarchical bureaucracy of the church - to pretty much preach whatever they wanted to, and justify it with the pick & mix obscurantism that the Book's daft scaremongering babble so conveniently provided. The Book Of Revelation is a travesty, almost certainly the product of "evil reasoning" on the part of foresighted people seeking theological power who were seriously obstructed by the purity and coherence of Jesus's message.

Originally posted by jaywill
It would be misleading to that think only a high level of intelligence is relevant in the spiritual life. A very intelligent person can be involved in what Jesus called [b]"evil reasonings". Oh, they can reason alright. But they have evil reasonings which lead to sins against God and man.[/b]

It sounds like you are arguing in favor of the suggestion that religious folk are moronic in nature, and that you think it is a good thing.
It is not quite clear what you are saying in your post. Are you saying:
1. Both highly intelligent people and those of lower intelligence are capable of incorrectly justifying evil acts.
or
2. Highly intelligent people are more likely to incorrectly justify evil acts therefore you are better or dull.

Originally posted by FMF
What if the ecclesiastical technocrats who cobbled together the Holy Bible were, as you put it, '...involved in what Jesus called [b]"evil reasoning"'? The addition of The Book Of Revelation, in particular, smacks of a self -serving obfuscation of Jesus's own crystal clear message, enabling only those who "got" Revelation - an achievement exclusively defined ...[text shortened]... l power who were seriously obstructed by the purity and coherence of Jesus's message.[/b]

are you unable to open the book and learn something? why is that?

Originally posted by FMF
What if the ecclesiastical technocrats who cobbled together the Holy Bible were, as you put it, '...involved in what Jesus called [b]"evil reasoning"'? The addition of The Book Of Revelation, in particular, smacks of a self -serving obfuscation of Jesus's own crystal clear message, enabling only those who "got" Revelation - an achievement exclusively defined ...[text shortened]... l power who were seriously obstructed by the purity and coherence of Jesus's message.[/b]

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What if the ecclesiastical technocrats who cobbled together the Holy Bible were, as you put it, '...involved in what Jesus called "evil reasoning"'?
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On the day of judgment you will not have to answer for their sins, if there be sins in that regard. You will be responsible for your own.

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The addition of The Book Of Revelation, in particular, smacks of a self -serving obfuscation of Jesus's own crystal clear message, enabling only those who "got" Revelation
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Revelation is a difficult book. However, it is the climax of the whole Bible. And actually there is very little in it that is "new". Most people who read it are not sufficiently familiar with the rest of the Bible to comprehend how the symbols are best interpreted.

Just about everything in the book of Revelation is based upon something already spoken to or of in the rest of the Bible. So I would not agree that there is obfuscation going on there. However, I do acknowledge that it is a difficult book in some respects.

I would not advize a new Bible reader to start with the book of Revelation. However, I would not discourage anyone from reading it aloud, for there is a special blessing upon one just in reading it.

It is no shame to realize, like the Ethiopian eunuoch in Acts 8, that one is in need of guidance for help in understanding portions of a book:

"And Philip ran up, he heard him reading Isaiah and said, Do you really know the things that you are reading? And he said, How could I unless someone guides me?" (Acts 8:30)

The Bible reader was not ashamed to ask for assistance in understanding. We can do the same with a difficult book like Revelation. Discerningly and soberly, checking and weighing all things, we can receive help to get into a book like Revelation.


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- an achievement exclusively defined by the hierarchical bureaucracy of the church - to pretty much preach whatever they wanted to, and justify it with the pick & mix obscurantism that the Book's daft scaremongering babble so conveniently provided. The Book Of Revelation is a travesty, almost certainly the product of "evil reasoning" on the part of foresighted people seeking theological power who were seriously obstructed by the purity and coherence of Jesus's message.
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If you start with that kind of attitude I don't think you'll get too far.

Let me give you one simple key to this difficult book. It is chiefly, The Revelation of Jesus Christ. The central figure is Jesus Christ. The central figures are not frogs, dragons, horns, hailstones, earthquakes.

What is mainly revealed in this book is Jesus Christ. The problem is that too many people get sidetracked with so many fascinating and sensational things going on. If I were teaching this book, I probably would start by highlighting in every chapter how the book reveals Jesus Christ.

Once Christ is firmly grasped, then I would take a second pass over it to help the reader see the people of Jesus Christ, the church, Israel, the Bride, the New Jerusalem. So then once they have a firm grasp of the FOCUS of Jesus Christ and His people, then I would go over it a third pass.

Revelation is so sweet and precious. Don't discard it. Without it the Bible has no conclusion and no climax. Revelation is a consummation of the Bible. It is crucial. And without it the Bible is without a finale and consummation.

Originally posted by jaywill
Revelation is so sweet and precious. Don't discard it. Without it the Bible has no conclusion and no climax. Revelation is a consummation of the Bible. It is crucial. And without it the Bible is without a finale and consummation.

Take a look at who wrote it. When they wrote it. Why they wrote it. And what has been done with it. The Book Of Revelation is the ultimate betrayal of Jesus and the ultimate empowerment of intelligent, manipulative people involved in what Jesus himself called "evil reasonings".

Originally posted by FMF
Take a look at who wrote it. When they wrote it. Why they wrote it. And what has been done with it. The Book Of Revelation is the ultimate betrayal of Jesus and the ultimate empowerment of intelligent, manipulative people involved in what Jesus himself called "evil reasonings".

I think far too much time and effort is spent going over and over and over this book for thousands of years is wasted effort. You forget how to actually live and only live for your so-called eternal life after death, so you are all obsessed with death to the detriment of living. That is to my mind incredibly wasteful of our gifts of intelligence. Religions don't WANT intelligent people except those who would use their intelligence to bend people towards religion, outside of that, intelligence is an obstruction to the obsessive life of the religious.

Originally posted by sonhouse
I think far too much time and effort is spent going over and over and over this book for thousands of years is wasted effort. You forget how to actually live and only live for your so-called eternal life after death, so you are all obsessed with death to the detriment of living. That is to my mind incredibly wasteful of our gifts of intelligence. Religions ...[text shortened]... ligion, outside of that, intelligence is an obstruction to the obsessive life of the religious.

"Religion"; what an invention😵

Originally posted by FMF
Take a look at who wrote it. When they wrote it. Why they wrote it. And what has been done with it. The Book Of Revelation is the ultimate betrayal of Jesus and the ultimate empowerment of intelligent, manipulative people involved in what Jesus himself called "evil reasonings".

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Take a look at who wrote it. When they wrote it. Why they wrote it. And what has been done with it. The Book Of Revelation is the ultimate betrayal of Jesus and the ultimate empowerment of intelligent, manipulative people involved in what Jesus himself called "evil reasonings".
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Nonsense.

Ridiculous.

The writing could be abused to press some agenda. You can't blame that on John. Actually, any attempt to press your theory I could show would be self contradictory.

Why would scoundrels write a book in which the final judgment of all men is so entirely inevitable that no one can hide or escape or get away with ANYTHING ?

Originally posted by jaywill
Why would scoundrels write a book in which the final judgment of all men is so entirely inevitable that no one can hide or escape or get away with ANYTHING ?

I could think of many reasons. The 'why would anyone lie' defense is one of the weakest arguments for believing whats in the Bible - yet surprisingly popular. Makes you wonder why people don't have any better defenses.

[edit]
And many Christians seem to believe that Christians do infact get away with all sorts of things. But then that depends on what you mean by 'get away with'.

Originally posted by FMF
Take a look at who wrote it. When they wrote it. Why they wrote it. And what has been done with it. The Book Of Revelation is the ultimate betrayal of Jesus and the ultimate empowerment of intelligent, manipulative people involved in what Jesus himself called "evil reasonings".

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The Book Of Revelation is the ultimate betrayal of Jesus and the ultimate empowerment of intelligent, manipulative people involved in what Jesus himself called "evil reasonings".
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Prove it. Start with chapter one. Particularly I am interested in your "betrayal" theory.

Chapter one, where's the "betrayal"?

Originally posted by jaywill
Why would scoundrels write a book in which the final judgment of all men is so entirely inevitable that no one can hide or escape or get away with ANYTHING ?

My goodness. You have inadvertantly hit the nail right on the head.

Originally posted by jaywill
Actually, any attempt to press your theory I could show would be self contradictory.

The few simple words that Jesus uttered seemed to have a universal and inherently uncontrollable strength such that their influence grew despite the obscurity of his life and death. They survived the interpretations of the unknown scribes that produced the texts which were gathered together as the Gospels. Christ's language witnessed reality in such a way that no organized power could control his meaning or profit from it. Even the subsequent compromises made by the Church in order to win support from the emperor and the bureaucratic officials in Rome did not limit the force of his actual words.

It was only thanks to the contested and late inclusion in the New Testement of the Book of Revelations that governments and the administrators of formal religion were able to gain control over Christ's language. Rome pushed hard for inclusion. Constantinople and the Church in the east were strongly opposed.

The premise of Revelations was that an old man called John, living on the island of Patmos, could deliver a prophesy revealled to him by the risen Jesus Christ. Five verses into the text, John establishes his privileged relationship by introducing Christ as "the faithful witness" who, with "a great voice as of a trumpet," instructs him to write. The "faithful witness" is the one who sees and speaks accurately and thus is to be trusted. John then goes on to convey Christ's message to the churches on earth.

What follows are pages of raving. These include the entire pagan, superstitious, dark tradition which had dominated the Western barbarian tradition until the arrival of Christianity. The Book of Revelations is nothing more than a compendium of mythological elements drawn from the Old Testament. But this is precisely the sort of mythology which, when isolated from the main narrative, Judaism had in common with every other sect in the Mediterranean basin. the mesmerizing beauty of the words and images cannot be denied - majestic, filled with foreboding, threats and promises - offering a tantalizing physical view of heaven, which Christ himself had so carefully avoided: providing, in fact, a complete and complex ready-made model for the obedient and credulous Christian imagination.

[Cup of coffee time. I'm not done. Bear with me.]

Originally posted by FMF
My goodness. You have inadvertantly hit the nail right on the head.

Nice evasion. Now, will your next post address the challenge of showing "betrayals" in chapter one of Revelation?

Let's see.

Originally posted by jaywill
Nice evasion. Now, will your next post address the challenge of showing "betrayals" in chapter one of Revelation?

Let's see.

Thufferin' thocotash he/she has turned evasion into almost an art form, if it were not so despicable!