1. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    27 Nov '12 01:001 edit
    Or do we learn it?
    I believe this has been an enduring question with very strong opinions on both sides.
    First of all, do you think I could just get a few "yes" or "no's" to this question?
    Just to establish where we stand.

    BTW, I think kids are born perfectly innocent and bit by bit they learn sillyness, which if not dealt with by the parent can lead to distinct bad behaviour, and, maybe by the time a kid is 14 or 15 can develop into what is know commonly as evil.
    Devils influence? I dont think so.
  2. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    27 Nov '12 01:17
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Or do we learn it?
    I believe this has been an enduring question with very strong opinions on both sides.
    First of all, do you think I could just get a few "yes" or "no's" to this question?
    Just to establish where we stand.

    BTW, I think kids are born perfectly innocent and bit by bit they learn sillyness, which if not dealt with by the parent can l ...[text shortened]... 4 or 15 can develop into what is know commonly as evil.
    Devils influence? I dont think so.
    Children are blank slates.
    Some may be more disposed to becoming evil
    but I believe nurture trumps nature every time.
  3. Joined
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    27 Nov '12 01:21
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Or do we learn it?
    I believe this has been an enduring question with very strong opinions on both sides.
    First of all, do you think I could just get a few "yes" or "no's" to this question?
    Just to establish where we stand.

    BTW, I think kids are born perfectly innocent and bit by bit they learn sillyness, which if not dealt with by the parent can l ...[text shortened]... 4 or 15 can develop into what is know commonly as evil.
    Devils influence? I dont think so.
    Ok you want a simple yes or no to start so here is a no.
  4. Donationbbarr
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    27 Nov '12 01:28
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Or do we learn it?
    I believe this has been an enduring question with very strong opinions on both sides.
    First of all, do you think I could just get a few "yes" or "no's" to this question?
    Just to establish where we stand.

    BTW, I think kids are born perfectly innocent and bit by bit they learn sillyness, which if not dealt with by the parent can l ...[text shortened]... 4 or 15 can develop into what is know commonly as evil.
    Devils influence? I dont think so.
    Of course not.
  5. Joined
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    27 Nov '12 01:44
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Or do we learn it?
    I believe this has been an enduring question with very strong opinions on both sides.
    First of all, do you think I could just get a few "yes" or "no's" to this question?
    Just to establish where we stand.

    BTW, I think kids are born perfectly innocent and bit by bit they learn sillyness, which if not dealt with by the parent can l ...[text shortened]... 4 or 15 can develop into what is know commonly as evil.
    Devils influence? I dont think so.
    You left out the 'sinful' half. I prefer that over evil. If we believe scripture, which I do, it says we all have a sinful nature. This sinful nature, I believe is natural, not learned.
  6. Joined
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    27 Nov '12 02:33
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Or do we learn it?
    I believe this has been an enduring question with very strong opinions on both sides.
    First of all, do you think I could just get a few "yes" or "no's" to this question?
    Just to establish where we stand.

    BTW, I think kids are born perfectly innocent and bit by bit they learn sillyness, which if not dealt with by the parent can l ...[text shortened]... 4 or 15 can develop into what is know commonly as evil.
    Devils influence? I dont think so.
    We are all born with sin and imperfection.

    Romans 5:12
    Good News Translation (GNT)

    12 Sin came into the world through one man, and his sin brought death with it. As a result, death has spread to the whole human race because everyone has sinned.


    1 John 1:8-10
    Good News Translation (GNT)

    8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and there is no truth in us. 9 But if we confess our sins to God, he will keep his promise and do what is right: he will forgive us our sins and purify us from all our wrongdoing. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make a liar out of God, and his word is not in us.
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    27 Nov '12 02:452 edits
    Sin is a meaningless construct, outside of a set of subjectively designated rules, I think most could agree that a serial killer could be labelled Evil,(still a highly charged and inaccurate label) and the evidence is pointing to a predisposition aggravated by negative life experiences/nurture.
  8. Standard membercaissad4
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    27 Nov '12 06:08
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    [b]Or do we learn it?
    I believe this has been an enduring question with very strong opinions on both sides.
    First of all, do you think I could just get a few "yes" or "no's" to this question?
    Just to establish where we stand.
    Children are not a blank slate. The major obstacle I see for us humans is to exceed our innate instincts. I mean those behaviors which enabled our species to succeed hundreds of thousands ago. Excess agression, zenophobic behavior to name two. If we cannot evolve we will become extinct. We must recognize that certain 'human" behaviors were necessary in another time and that we still have inclinations towards that behavior. We must coldly and rationally examine our own psyche and let go of behaviors which are detrimental to our species survival.
  9. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
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    27 Nov '12 06:20
    Originally posted by wolfgang59
    Children are blank slates.
    Some may be more disposed to becoming evil
    but I believe nurture trumps nature every time.
    Are they really blank slates? they seem like it, but is there not some inherent goodness in all children?
    In Christianity it says "become like a child to enter the kingdom", in Buddhism the Buddha is described by the same chi;d like qualities.
    Maybe it's not "goodness" they have, maybe it's a more wholistic perspective- however limited.
    I saw the movie "Blood Diamonds" where 9-10 year olds were shown how to kill someone. It's not as easy as just 'drawing on a blank canvas', the children clearly have a strong aversion to killing another human, which is why they are blindfolded for their first kills, until they lose their aversion to it, and get with the peer mentality,when they are richly praised and rewarded. The whereabouts of their families which they were taken from have long ceased to be a major issue with most of them by then.
  10. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
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    27 Nov '12 06:30
    Originally posted by JS357
    Ok you want a simple yes or no to start so here is a no.
    So going on from that ("no"😉, would you agree with me where I try to put forward the idea that they are actually born "good*" and that the 'good' is easier to nurture than the bad, especially 'evil'?

    *with 'good' here I'm trying to say something like 'in touch with nature' and the general archetypes that we refer to (Jungian or otherwise). Even when a young child sees death they dont seem concerned. Perhaps on a more fundamental level they are in touch with the universe and see death as nothing so bad at all. As if they knew (like animals seem to) that physical death itself is just as everyday and natural as eating breakfast.
  11. Cape Town
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    27 Nov '12 06:32
    I agree with caissad4 that we are born with certain instinctual behaviours. We also learn behaviours from the interaction of ourselves with our environment.
    The most 'evil' people are those with no sense of empathy, and I believe that in many cases they are born that way.
    Other forms of evil such as racism where we lack significant empathy for those who we see as different from us (or at least have different empathy scales), is also a combination of natural instinct and learned behaviour.
    And then there is the evil of religion where people have empathy, believe they are doing good, but due to various factors end up doing bad. Again, I say this includes both instinctual behaviour and environmental effects.
    Of course, intertwined with all this is intelligence and concious reasoning and choice.
  12. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    27 Nov '12 06:471 edit
    Originally posted by boonon
    You left out the 'sinful' half. I prefer that over evil. If we believe scripture, which I do, it says we all have a sinful nature. This sinful nature, I believe is natural, not learned.
    Another major beef I have with Christianity.

    Did you ever consider that our so-called sinful natures,( or ying and yang) , are a necessary component of learning to return to the Source?
    If everything was good then how could we ever learn or improve on anything.

    We'd all be walking around saying "It's all good" ,(which some people do 😛 ), but not really have any idea of what that 'good' is' .
    Sounds like I'm contradicting myself, doesn't it?
    Remember in Buddhism we are taught to first get rid a bad karma (sinful stuff) and accumulate good karma. In the advanced stages we are told to get rid of all good karma as well. The reason for this is that karma belongs to the "wheel of becoming" , and as good as your karma may be, as long as you hold onto it, you will remain in the world of suffering.
    You move from the state of Karma into a state of 'Grace' by giving away all karma.
    There you go. Grace. A word that most Christians can readily relate to.

    (In Hinduism it says that we are moving from a state of karma to a state of grace.Into(or is it out of,Kali Yuga). If true, then all will be forgiven, and all that deserve retribution will be spared. Mind you , that's why you,I and the rest of us are here. "God" sent the best, in this case us. And I'm sure "He's" not the only one sick of all this toing and throwing on this planet. Just be prepared to change your diet from burgers and fries to a diet of pure light 😉
  13. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    27 Nov '12 06:591 edit
    Originally posted by caissad4
    Children are not a blank slate. The major obstacle I see for us humans is to exceed our innate instincts. I mean those behaviors which enabled our species to succeed hundreds of thousands ago. Excess agression, zenophobic behavior to name two. If we cannot evolve we will become extinct. We must recognize that certain 'human" behaviors were necessary in anot ...[text shortened]... examine our own psyche and let go of behaviors which are detrimental to our species survival.
    Yes the limbic system is at the heart of the brain - as if the rest of the brain was built upon it.
    I agree. This is the challenge individually and collectively- to understand and evolve/transcend our carnal natures, and to finally discover the real purpose of our amazing brains.

    And whereas a 'one-size-fits-all-religion' clearly doesn't work, there are certain universal realities that we all need to learn, experientially, not just "from a book".
    Some come naturally to some , others are tough. But all opposites are reconciled in the Tao, so therefor nothing should be looked at as hard - ar else it might just become hard.(I prefer to look at it as tricky - as if we have been tricked somehow, and the lie has been passed on from generation to generation)
    If one doesn't exercise a wholistic view of the universe, then all affirmations will remain a hit and miss affair. (Not that affirmations are whats needed, but does anyone NOT talk to themselves? )
  14. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    27 Nov '12 07:11
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I agree with caissad4 that we are born with certain instinctual behaviours. We also learn behaviours from the interaction of ourselves with our environment.
    The most 'evil' people are those with no sense of empathy, and I believe that in many cases they are born that way.
    Other forms of evil such as racism where we lack significant empathy for those who ...[text shortened]... ects.
    Of course, intertwined with all this is intelligence and concious reasoning and choice.
    Well organized religion, amongst other things,is a show from fearful people that they all need to agree on something, especially about names and places and those dreary particulars that dont really matter, because clearly they DON'T have a r'ship with "God" (as some Christians put it).
    I am way more impressed when someone gives me their own take on spirituality, whether I agree or disagree, because they have obviously experienced something that they feel strongly enough to comment about. They don't need a congregation of yes men backing them up.
    Let's face it - the truth is only a very small number of humans have now ,and have ever, become enlightened (in a Buddhists),sense. The rest of us dont know. There is no in between.
    The boddhisatvas are on the right track and they know it. But until they are enlightened , they too are still subject to misunderstanding and all the drawbacks of dragging a physical body around all day.
  15. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    27 Nov '12 07:24
    Originally posted by bbarr
    Of course not.
    Do you subscribe to the idea of 'interplanetary conciousness'? ie. that if your mind transcends the physical and returns to the source, it requires a huge amount of responsibility to function succesfully at that level?
    Maybe we need to learn evil to know exactly how not to think when we have lost our innocence.
    eg. I am a pacifist by and large , but I have had a few very vivid dreams where I was a soldier and told to go kill a prisoner with what looked like a piece of glass the size of a butcher knife.
    Effed up dream, I know, but the meaning of it has stayed with me . The horror in the guys eyes as I was hacking away at his chest was graphic and utterly terrible, but if I looked around there was someone pointing a gun at me and motioning as if I had to finish the job. The dream ends with the guy still alive and in pain.
    Bad dream, but very useful lessons to be drawn from it.


    Just like NDE's. You'd have to virtually die to have a shamanic vision (in the west anyway), to get an insight into the workings of "god" and the universe. Now we have acid and salvia and vitamin k,etc. So you can relatively safely 'die' and then have a shamanic insight.
    I liken this to my dream, because the dream wasn't real,so no one was physically harmed, and I didn't have to nearly die to have that insight.
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