Originally posted by Treytrumpet1Does the Bible authorize you to drive an automobile? The Amish, for example, have similar views about such things. Do you agree with them?
Yes. The Bible in no way authorizes us to use the instrument in worship. We must always do that which the Bible authorizes (Col. 3:17). In fact, that verse is in the very context of singing!
Originally posted by knightmeisterI visited the website. I am aware that there are those who refer to those who follow the Bible and obey its teaching as cultic. However, their claims are without any basis whatsoever, and they are illogical in their conclusions.
Fair enough but did you visit the website? I want to know whether you understand the dynamics of how the Church of Christ works and where it has lead you astray. Do you understand the thinking styles and psychology it uses? Can you appreciate how talk of having a personal relationship might be threatening to such an organization?
"There is no salva ...[text shortened]... ut there are people out there to support you and many on this forum who can help also.
Trust me, I think for myself, I am my own person. My views on the Bible come from my own personal study. My leader is Christ, and yes...He did say I would go to hell if I leave His church. There is no salvation in any other! Outside of the body of Christ there is no hope of heaven, since He is the Savior of the body (Eph. 5:23).
I would even dare to say that those who refuse to open their eyes and see the simplicity of the Gospel of Christ for what it is, are in a sense cultic. They worship themselves, unknowingly sometimes, but all is self service, because none is given to Christ. I pray that we can all come to a knowledge of the truth, and be saved, but honestly I don't think many in this thread have been listening to my posts at all.
I want to submit this question, and maybe this will be the final post on this subject: "What is the church of Christ, and when did it begin?"
"What is the church of Christ?" is probably my favorite question I have ever been asked. Well, it is simply that, the church that belongs to Christ. Let's take a look into some of the prophecies in the Old Testament about the church's coming, and then we will notice the actual establishment in the New Testament.
A good prophecy to start with is the one that is recorded in II Samuel 7:12-16. Here, God is speaking to David through the prophet Nathan: "And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee. And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever." So we see from this text that after David is dead, God is going to establish the kingdom of David's descendant (Christ is the "son of David" - Matt. 1). This house/kingdom would stand forever!
Now, Isaiah prophesied about the church some 780 years before it came into existence: “And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem” (Isaiah 2:2-3). What was to be established was the "Lord's house," which is also referred to in the New Testament. In I Tim. 3:15 we learn that the terms "Lord's house," and "church," are synonymous. According to Isaiah, this was to take place "in the last days." This is a figure of speech which doesn't literally mean the last days of the earth, because the church is already here, and been here for nearly 2000 years. This is referring to the last days of the Jewish Age. Also, Isaiah refers to when this would take place: the city of Jerusalem. So to recap this prophecy, the church would be established during the last days of the Jewish age, in Jerusalem.
Another key prophecy about the church is found in Dan. 2:44. In this context, the king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar, had a dream of a great statue. It had a head of gold, which represented the Babylonian empire; breastplate and arms of silver, which represented the next earthly kingdom, the Medes and Persians; then the belly and thighs of brass, which represented the Grecian/Macedonian empire; and finally the legs and feet of iron, which represented the Roman empire. Now, the phrase in our text "these kings" refers to these of the Roman empire. "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.” Therefore, in this passage we see that in the days of the Roman kings, God would set up this kingdom that would stand forever.
Now to the New Testament, Matt. 3:1-2 says, "In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, and saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Jesus preached the same thing (Matt. 4:17). What does this mean, "the kingdom is at hand?" Well, it simply means that it is near, it is coming soon. In Matt. 6:10, there is an occasion where the disciples ask the Lord to teach them to pray. In Jesus' example, He prayed, "thy kingdom come..." Thus, this shows us that the kingdom at this time still had not yet been established. Some six months before the Lord was crucified, this conversation took place: "When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matt. 16:13-19). He made that famous statement, "I will build My church." A few items we can note from this statement: (1) The church is not yet in existence. (2) Christ is the builder of the church; not another mere man. (3) Christ is the owner of His church. (4) Christ has only one church.
Christ also made this statement which is key to our study about the church: "And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power." First, we can notice that some of those that Jesus was speaking to there at that very moment would not die until the kingdom would come into existence. Second, we see that the kingdom is going to come with "power." We'll notice was this power is as we go along.
When the Christ was instituting the Lord's Supper shortly before His death, he made this statement, "For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come” (Luke 22:18). And then, as He hang on the cross, the thief said unto Jesus, "...Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom” (Luke 23:42). Here we have Christ dying, and the kingdom is still not in existence!
He died, He was buried, and He was resurrected, and came and said unto the apostles, “And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things. And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high” (Luke 24:46-49). This is key to our study about the church's establishment! Christ said they should start preaching repentance and remission of sins BEGINNING at Jerusalem! Isaiah said that the house of the Lord would be established in Jersualem (Isa. 2:2-3). And then, Jesus said that they would received POWER from on high. Christ said that the kingdom would come with power (Mark 9:1).
Now, lets notice the actual establishment of the church. A. Acts 2:17 – “And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:” This is a quote of Joel 2:28-32 here. Notice Peter attributes this first Pentecost after the resurrection of Christ as "the last days" (refer back to Isaiah's prophecy). Heb. 1:1-2 says, “God, who at sundry times and in diverse manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds.” It was last days when the Hebrews writer wrote this.
Here is the Day of Pentecost. The power came upon the apostles, just like Christ promised; it was the power from the Holy Spirit: "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto uttermost part of the earth” (Acts 1:8). Remember in Luke 24:46-49 – Christ instructed to wait in Jerusalem till they were endued with power from on high. In these verses we see this: (1) They are in Jerusalem; (2) They are in the “last days;” (3) The power of the Holy Spirit is come upon the Apostles. Peter said, as recorded in Acts 2:30, “Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on the his throne.” This verse is talking about David and the prophecy noted earlier in II Samuel 7:12-16. Christ is King now; therefore He must have a kingdom!
In Matthew 16:19, Christ promised Peter (and the rest of the apostles) the keys to the kingdom of heaven. This is symbolic of authority; the apostles were inspired during these times, therefore they were the ambassadors for Christ. Peter preached to the multitude that this same Jesus that they have killed is really the Messiah! He really was/is the Son of God! And Peter uses those "keys" (figuratively speaking), when he said, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:38). Peter opened the door to the kingdom of God. Now man can access the kingdom through baptism (I Cor. 12:13). Acts 2:41 says, "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls." Added unto what? Acts 2:47 says, "Praising God, ...
Originally posted by whodeyThe Amish views are not at all similar as they are not based on strict reading of Biblical "prohibitions" but rather on a general philosophy of humility and isolating themselves from the world.
Does the Bible authorize you to drive an automobile? The Amish, for example, have similar views about such things. Do you agree with them?
Originally posted by Treytrumpet1Where did you cut and paste this from?
I want to submit this question, and maybe this will be the final post on this subject: "What is the church of Christ, and when did it begin?"
"What is the church of Christ?" is probably my favorite question I have ever been asked. Well, it is simply that, the church that belongs to Christ. Let's take a look into some of the prophecies in the Old T ...[text shortened]... hat? Acts 2:47 says, "Praising God, ...
Originally posted by Treytrumpet1Theists,
I visited the website. I am aware that there are those who refer to those who follow the Bible and obey its teaching as cultic. However, their claims are without any basis whatsoever, and they are illogical in their conclusions.
Trust me, I think for myself, I am my own person. My views on the Bible come from my own personal study. My leader is C ...[text shortened]... e saved, but honestly I don't think many in this thread have been listening to my posts at all.
Please spend some time reading through treytrumpet1’s posts…pretty silly isn’t he? The poor chap is just about as backwards as they come, all wrapped up in a cult, and seemingly defenseless against its binds. This is the side of irrational belief that gets swept under the rug; this is where faith leads those with a weak mind. Rejoice in Treytrumpet1’s bondage as he is the logical result of belief without evidence; the logical result of fear of eternal punishment. Treytrumpet1 is the love child between irrational belief and fear, and he is your responsibility…fix him.
Originally posted by TheSkipperAtheists,
Theists,
Please spend some time reading through treytrumpet1’s posts…pretty silly isn’t he? The poor chap is just about as backwards as they come, all wrapped up in a cult, and seemingly defenseless against its binds. This is the side of irrational belief that gets swept under the rug; this is where faith leads those with a weak mind. Rejoice in Tre ...[text shortened]... t1 is the love child between irrational belief and fear, and he is your responsibility…fix him.
Let's start a different thread about evidences of the Bible being from God. What do you think?
Originally posted by Treytrumpet1The Bible claims that there is only one God-given interpretation also. "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were borne along by the Holy Spirit."
You need to go back and study more closely the evidence for the infallibility of the Scriptures. I am confident that we have the Bible, that which was inspired of God, word for word inspiration (Jer. 1:9; II Sam. 23:2).
You have to accept that there are absolutes in this world. Right now I can objectively say that I am sitting down. I am not stand unity of the entire Bible? Can these things be accounted for in man's doing?
You have given here the KJV translation; I offer two others as well—
YLT 2 Peter 1:20 this first knowing, that no prophecy of the Writing doth come of private exposition, 21 for not by will of man did ever prophecy come, but by the Holy Spirit borne on holy men of God spake. (Young’s Literal Translation; my italics)
NRS 2 Peter 1:20 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21 because no prophecy ever came by human will, but men and women moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. (New Revised Standard)
—The word translated as “exposition” by YLT is epiluseos. It’s root meaning is “that which has been loosed or released”; and can be translated as interpretation, exposition, explanation, among other meanings.
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The Greek in transliteration—
20 touto proton ginoskontes hoti pasa propheitia graphes idias epiluseos ou ginetai 21 ou gar theleimati anthropon enechthei propheitia pote alla hupo pneumatos hagiou pheromenoi elaleisan apo theou anthropoi.
Translating directly from the Greek (with some minimal rearranged word-order, and punctuation added, according to English)—
20 First, you must recognize that all prophecy-writing (propheitia graphes) personal-exposition (idias epiluseos) is not (or “not is brought forth/begotten”: ou ginetai); 21 not certainly human desire caused prophecy at any time, but by means of the holy-spirit-causing, humans (anthropoi) spoke from God.
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In your presentation, you have committed the following acts of interpretation (or followed those of others):
(1) You have treated all Biblical writing as “prophecy”; that is, you have applied a broad definition of the word, rather than a more restrictive one (e.g., as applying specifically to the OT prophets). This is not necessarily incorrect; it is text-contextually interpretive.
—Also, you seem to apply Peter’s words to the (future) NT as well: including Peter’s own words here! Again, that is highly interpretive, especially in light of verse 21 being cast in the past tense.
(2) You have apparently applied epiluseos not simply to the expounding of (then extant) prophetic writings—which is strictly what the text says—but to interpretation on the part of the reader as well. This simply violates the use of the word ginetai in verse 20.
—This error does seem to fall naturally from the KJV text, which at best is ambiguous here.
(3) Following on that error, you apparently see your own interpretive reading of the text (or that of the group to which you belong), as being the single “God-given” one.
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With all that said, the early church following the apostolic period did maintain that proper interpretation is only within and from the church itself. If you want to know how that interpretation was done, I suggest you read in the early church fathers (e.g., from 100-600 C.E. or so); you might also take a look at the Greek Orthodox church today, since (a) they never lost the original language, and (b) claim to have preserved in large measure those earliest interpretations by the church.
Originally posted by TheSkipperIf we can't fix you what makes you think we can fix him? 😛
Theists,
Please spend some time reading through treytrumpet1’s posts…pretty silly isn’t he? The poor chap is just about as backwards as they come, all wrapped up in a cult, and seemingly defenseless against its binds. This is the side of irrational belief that gets swept under the rug; this is where faith leads those with a weak mind. Rejoice in Tre ...[text shortened]... t1 is the love child between irrational belief and fear, and he is your responsibility…fix him.
Originally posted by Treytrumpet1All things are lawful for those under God's grace.
Haha. I play trumpet and drums. But not in worship to God.
Your conscience tells you that using instruments to praise God isn't lawful, and that's OK. Respecting your conscience a Christian will not force instrumental music on you. However, your conscience does not affect a Christian's freedom to praise God in whatever manner he would like, he respects your wishes only for the sake of your conscience - not because God will not accept instruments in praise.
Consider:
""All things are lawful," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful," but not all things build up. Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor... for the sake of the one who informed you, and for the sake of conscience—I do not mean your conscience, but his" (1 Corinthians 10:23-24,28-29).
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Whatever a person does can be done for the Lord and for His glory:
"Whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God" (1 Corinthians 10:31).
"And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men" (Colossians 3:23).
Originally posted by Treytrumpet1You are being awfully obtuse. You say, "We have deemed it expedient to be called the church of Christ, since it is the church of Christ," and, "Absolutely the Lord's church is an actual organization," and, "The church which belongs to Christ follows the Law of Christ in it's worship and organization and so forth." Stop being cute and come clean. What is the name of the church which you attend the first day of every week, whose doors you physically walk through in order to take communion and find fellowship?
Absolutely the Lord's church is an actual organization. It came into existence in A.D. 30 after Christ's resurrection. He reigns over it today. My point is simply this: there is one church that is spoken of in the pages of the New Testament, and that we should and must be members of it today if we want to enjoy the blessings of salvation.
I agree in it's worship and organization and so forth. Why is this so hard for all to understand?
If Christ is your Lord, be honest. Do you attend church at all?