Originally posted by Treytrumpet1there is one church that is spoken of in the pages of the New Testament, and that we should and must be members of it today if we want to enjoy the blessings of salvation --TREYTUMPET-----
Absolutely the Lord's church is an actual organization. It came into existence in A.D. 30 after Christ's resurrection. He reigns over it today. My point is simply this: there is one church that is spoken of in the pages of the New Testament, and that we should and must be members of it today if we want to enjoy the blessings of salvation.
I agree ...[text shortened]... in it's worship and organization and so forth. Why is this so hard for all to understand?
Don't you see how this is dodgy ? Notice how you have been sublty encouraged to believe that membership of your organisation and salvation are intertwined. This is very convenient , but it is also not scriptural. The Bible says that we receive salvation as a gift of grace from God via the Holy Spirit through faith. Salvation is a work of the spirit NOT the work of an organisation. This is classic cult stuff.
Control through fear. Associate salvation with membership. Deny individual relationship with God. I've been to one of your meetings years ago and seen it close up. I know this will produce anxiety within you Trumpet but this is not the Way. Remember Jesus said we need to be as wise as serpents. It's time to be a bit more cynical about what you are involved in.
Originally posted by Treytrumpet1My leader is Christ, and yes...He did say I would go to hell if I leave His church. There is no salvation in any other! Outside of the body of Christ there is no hope of heaven, ---------TRUMPET-----
I visited the website. I am aware that there are those who refer to those who follow the Bible and obey its teaching as cultic. However, their claims are without any basis whatsoever, and they are illogical in their conclusions.
Trust me, I think for myself, I am my own person. My views on the Bible come from my own personal study. My leader is C ...[text shortened]... e saved, but honestly I don't think many in this thread have been listening to my posts at all.
And how do we become part of the body of Christ? We share in his spirit , the Holy Spirit. You could leave your church right now and if you are truely saved it won't make a difference if you still follow Christ. Christ lives in you . The Holy Spirit is not confined to a building or an organisation. He goes where he pleases. 'Outside the body of Christ' - means outside of the Spirit. It is the Spirit that gives salvation not the church. The word church just means a gathering of believers or which I and others here are part of.
Your church just gets in the way of God. If Christ is in you then that's the most important thing (biblical) . If he is not then no amount of membership will help.
Originally posted by Treytrumpet1"I visited the website. I am aware that there are those who refer to those who follow the Bible and obey its teaching as cultic. However, their claims are without any basis whatsoever, and they are illogical in their conclusions." --TREYTRUMPET----
I visited the website. I am aware that there are those who refer to those who follow the Bible and obey its teaching as cultic. However, their claims are without any basis whatsoever, and they are illogical in their conclusions.
Trust me, I think for myself, I am my own person. My views on the Bible come from my own personal study. My leader is C ...[text shortened]... e saved, but honestly I don't think many in this thread have been listening to my posts at all.
Why are their claims without basis? Why are they illogical? Can you give me a description of a cult and what it does? How would you define a cult?
I bet you my mortgage that people like me are labelled in your church as deceivers or people who are trying to "lead you astray". Am I right? Organisations like yours promote a certain perception of those who criticize them. The organisation is being criticised because it's following the Bible or following the "true way" . It's all rhetoric. The more the criticism the closer the ranks pull to keep you in. There's so much more for you to find out and for you to read it properly will be one of the hardest things you will ever do in your life.
I have more for you to look at.
http://www.carm.org/icc/icc_cult.htm
http://www.rickross.com/reference/icc/ICC220.html
Originally posted by TheSkipperIf one has a weak mind then irrational belief and fear can take you anywhere and you don't need religion to do that.
Theists,
Please spend some time reading through treytrumpet1’s posts…pretty silly isn’t he? The poor chap is just about as backwards as they come, all wrapped up in a cult, and seemingly defenseless against its binds. This is the side of irrational belief that gets swept under the rug; this is where faith leads those with a weak mind. Rejoice in Tre ...[text shortened]... t1 is the love child between irrational belief and fear, and he is your responsibility…fix him.
Originally posted by Treytrumpet1Trust me, I think for myself, I am my own person. My views on the Bible come from my own personal study. trumpet-------
I visited the website. I am aware that there are those who refer to those who follow the Bible and obey its teaching as cultic. However, their claims are without any basis whatsoever, and they are illogical in their conclusions.
Trust me, I think for myself, I am my own person. My views on the Bible come from my own personal study. My leader is C ...[text shortened]... e saved, but honestly I don't think many in this thread have been listening to my posts at all.
Ahh ...but do you read other stuff. Documentaries on the moonies for example. Do you exercise critical thinking? Do you ever wonder why people think the CofC is a cult? Or do you just think it's non-believers attacking God's "true church"? I'm not so interested in your Bible study as your ability to think laterally and creatively.
Think about it. Do I sound like someone who is trying to bring down your church? What do I hope to gain on this little forum other than helping someone escape from something which has them trapped in religiosity and legalism? I have encountered your church , I know where it is coming from. You trust you leaders implicitly why not trust me? I am your brother in christ not your enemy. Only your church makes me out to be.
Originally posted by Treytrumpet1Well, the Colossians quote doesn't talk about erasing the Hebrew Scriptures (which Jesus clearly
Yes, I agree that the use of instruments was used in the Old Testament. However, that has no bearing whatsoever on our worship today because we are no longer under that system. As mentioned before it was nailed to the cross of Christ (Col. 2:14). It was done away (Heb. 10; Rom. 7:1-7). Therefore, since we are under the Law of Christ today, and the Law of Christ does not authorize it in worship to God, then we must refrain from doing.
relied upon as spiritually meritorious). It talks about 'erasing the record' of our trespasses. So,
that's a disingenuous misrepresentation of Scripture to uphold a viewpoint.
Romans talks about being discharged from the Law. The Psalms are not Mosaic Law; things like
keeping kosher are Mosaic Law. And all it speaks about is being discharged, not being commanded
not to keep it. Indeed, Jesus Himself said that He came to fulfill the Law, not abolish it, and
St Paul makes very clear that those who wish to keep the Law should feel free to do it, but
only if it doesn't obstruct the basic tenets of Christianity.
Finally, the Hebrews citation cites Psalm 40 to justify its position! That is, it quotes that God
is unimpressed with sacrifices and holocausts as a means of perfecting one's self. This is also
consistent with Jesus' discussion about the inside and outside of the cup. Further, the 'abolishing
the first in order to establish the second' refers explicitly to the previous chapter's discussion on
covenants not bodies of literature. The New Testament as a corpus didn't exist when
Hebrews was composed, anyway, so such a reading is bizarrely anachronistic. The moxie of
using this citation -- which draws its authority on the Psalms -- to justify ignoring the Psalms is
almost comic.
So, once again, we have a so-called Christian using Scripture to pervert Jesus' message. Maybe
you're used to seeming authoritative by throwing out Scripture citations left and right, but a
few of us actually read more than just two-lined excerpts from the Bible to inform ourselves
about what the early Christians believed. You ought to be ashamed.
Nemesio
Originally posted by vistesdYo yo! Why you be robbin' me of ma ride, quotin' Greek an all dat. Y'know I'm all worked up
[b]The Bible claims that there is only one God-given interpretation also. "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were borne along by the Holy Spirit."
You have given here the KJV translation; I offer two others ...[text shortened]... nd (b) claim to have preserved in large measure those earliest interpretations by the church.[/b]
'bout dis music jazz, so y' jump all up in ma grill and steal ma thunda?
Who you think you is?
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Originally posted by Treytrumpet1Interesting. You skipped Colosians 1:15. Why is that? Maybe because it says:
i absolutely believe that Jesus is God. He is Deity, and He claimed so in the Bible. He said, "Before Abraham was, I AM." He is the great I AM. He had a part in creation (John 1:1-5, 14; Col. 1:16-18). He said, "Except you believe that I AM, ye shall die in your sins," (John 8:24).
He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Hmm...
What about I Timothy 2:5-6:
For there is one God; there is also one mediator between God and humankind, Christ Jesus,
himself human who gave himself a ransom for all...
I don't care if you think Jesus is God. However, it's a Creedal belief, not Biblical. I can cite
another dozen or more if you want to really have a discussion about it. But I bet that's not your
style. You want to pretend that there's a Biblical basis for such a belief and all the Scriptural
citations in the world will never dislodge that.
Nemesio
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Originally posted by NemesioDidn’t want folks to think
Yo yo! Why you be robbin' me of ma ride, quotin' Greek an all dat. Y'know I'm all worked up
'bout dis music jazz, so y' jump all up in ma grill and steal ma thunda?
Who you think you is?
you’re the only Hellenophile here,
so, with a nod and wink,
I plucked at my Hellenic hardware...
_________________________
The word “sing” occurs in nine NT verses, listed below with the particular Greek word so translated:
Rom. 15:9—psalo.
1 Co. 14:15—psalo.
Eph. 5:19—lalountes; adontes; psallontes is translated here as “making melody”.
Col. 3:16—adontes.
Jas. 5:13—psalleto.
Rev. 4:8—legontes.
Rev. 5:9—adousin.
Rev. 14:3—adousin.
Rev. 15:3—adousin.
Now, ado (seen above in various forms) basically means “sing, produce musical sounds or notes with the voice.” (Liddel-Scott lexicon)
laleo means generally to talk or say. lego to talk, say or call. (Ibid)
psallo, however (seen above in various forms), means: “to touch sharply, to pluck, pull, twitch; to twang the bow-string; to send a shaft twanging from the bow; to play a stringed instrument with the fingers, not with a plectron; to sing to a harp, sing.” (Ibid; literary references omitted)
And: “Strictly, strike the strings of an instrument; hence, sing to accompaniment of a harp; in the NT, sing praises.” (Friberg lexicon)
Therefore, there is no warrant for assuming that NT references to psallo mean strictly singing without musical accompaniment—e.g., in Romans 15:9, which quotes Psalm 18:42. Absent some clear and unambiguous contextual support, that's eisegesis, not exegesis.
The related noun psalmos, of course, gives us “psalm.”
_______________________________
I hope this, in some small measure, makes up for my trespass...
Originally posted by vistesdVery nice. You are brilliant as usual.
Didn’t want folks to think
you’re the only Hellenophile here,
so, with a nod and wink,
I plucked at my Hellenic hardware...
_________________________
The word “sing” occurs in nine NT verses, listed below with the particular Greek word so translated:
Rom. 15:9—psalo.
1 Co. 14:15—psalo.
Eph. 5:19—lalountes; adontes; psallontes is transl ...[text shortened]... ____________________________
I hope this, in some small measure, makes up for my trespass...
Question to Treytrumpet : Is that sufficent proof that you and your cult are misinterpreting the NT?
Originally posted by epiphinehasThe church of Christ. Of course I attend worship services. I worship in Dalton, GA, with the Highland church of Christ.
You are being awfully obtuse. You say, "We have deemed it expedient to be called the church of Christ, since it is the church of Christ," and, "Absolutely the Lord's church is an actual organization," and, "The church which belongs to Christ follows the Law of Christ in it's worship and organization and so forth." Stop being cute and come clean. What ...[text shortened]... and find fellowship?
If Christ is your Lord, be honest. Do you attend church at all?
Originally posted by Treytrumpet1''and there are many external evidences that can prove the Bible to be truly given of Deity. '' you said.
The church of Christ. Of course I attend worship services. I worship in Dalton, GA, with the Highland church of Christ.
Two questions. First is can you give an idea of the class of these evidences; and secondly, how was the church led between being founded in 30ad; and the bible not assembled until (say) 200/250 ad?
Not to change the subject or anything but it reminds me of a time I visited a church that had no intstruments of any kind. It was not because they had any hang ups of any kind about using instruments, rather, they were just poor. However, what really blew me away was when certain people would have the incling to go solo in front of the congeration and begin to sing what was on their hearts right where the stood then and there. Everything in the church would stop once they began and until they finished. I have never in all my days felt such power and conviction from men and women singing as if they were bearing their very soul for all to see. Just thought I would share, so having said all of that carry on!!!!