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@fmf saidI think Dive was bang on the money. What you described wasn't biblical, and appeared to be something that was appealing to your personal sentiments.
It has nothing to do with whether it's appealing or not.
Romans 3:20
No one can stand before God with their resume of good works and be declared righteous. God is perfect and holy and can not tolerate sin. So unless you are perfect, do not bother to put your trust in your good works, for they can not save you.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidWell, yes. As I've said, more than once on this thread: works without faith = no "salvation".
Romans 3:20
No one can stand before God with their resume of good works and be declared righteous. God is perfect and holy and can not tolerate sin. So unless you are perfect, do not bother to put your trust in your good works, for they can not save you.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidNo, you are mistaken. It has nothing to do with whether it's appealing or with personal sentiments.
I think Dive was bang on the money. What you described wasn't biblical, and appeared to be something that was appealing to your personal sentiments.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidThere are no "personal sentiments" in play. It's quite clear that the Bible teaches that for "salvation", there must be both faith and good works; faith and no good works means no salvation; good works and no faith means no salvation. I see this as an objective perspective.
I think you need to revisit scripture objectively and put aside your personal sentiments.
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
So now you are riffing on the buzz words "personal sentiments" while there are maybe half a dozen points made on previous pages that you have simply blanked out.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidA believer may well be motivated by their belief in the "Spirit", and this motivation or "guidance" may well lead to decisions to engage in good works, all this is clear. But there is no "salvation" without those good works, no matter how strong the beliefs are.
'Yes, the receiver of the Spirit maintains the ability to choose, but does so having been transformed and is guided internally by the Spirit.'
@fmf saidA believer is not simply motivated by the Spirit, they are transformed by the Spirit, as a result of the faith that has secured them salvation. Good works are a by product of this.
A believer may well be motivated by their belief in the "Spirit", and this motivation or "guidance" may well lead to decisions to engage in good works, all this is clear. But there is no "salvation" without those good works, no matter how strong the beliefs are.
Titus 3:4-6
English Standard Version
But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
@ghost-of-a-duke saidThere has to be a decision to engage in good works. Without that, there is no "salvation".
A believer is not simply motivated by the Spirit, they are transformed by the Spirit, as a result of the faith that has secured them salvation. Good works are a by product of this.
@kellyjay saidYes, works without faith won't result in "salvation" according to Christian teaching. But faith without works won't either.
Titus 3:4-6
English Standard Version
But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
@ghost-of-a-duke saidAnd both that faith and those good works are needed in order for the faith to lead to "salvation".
It's a moot point. Genuine faith will lead to good works.
@kevin-eleven saidThe orthodox answer is that God in His fullness is unknowable to mortals, but that such divine attributes as are necessary for man’s salvation have been revealed by Him.
Why do some people say that God is unknowable and beyond human imagination, while also making assertions about God and Its attributes?
