@ghost-of-a-duke saidI think that someone who believes that their faith is irrevocable ~ and thinks that they are therefore going to be "saved" without doing good works ~ doesn't understand what the Bible teaches.
"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (Romans 11:29)
@fmf saidBut Romans 11:29 states that the gifts (salvation) and calling of God are irrevocable.
I think that someone who believes that their faith is irrevocable ~ and thinks that they are therefore going to be "saved" without doing good works ~ doesn't understand what the Bible teaches.
Please offer an alternative meaning for that passage.
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@ghost-of-a-duke saidSalvation depends on faith, and faith depends on good works, and good works embody obedience. I have no doubt that this ought to be interpreted as follows: the salvation is a free gift for those who accept it and if that faith renders itself as genuine through good works and obedience, then the gift of everlasting life is irrevocable. There is the "Calling of God", of course, but it assumes that those called [i.e. who believe God has "saved" them] do not have faith that is rendered "dead" by no good works.
But Romans 11:29 states that the gifts (salvation) and calling of God are irrevocable.
Please offer an alternative meaning for that passage.
@fmf saidGood works are a necessary consequence of faith, but as the Bible makes clear, 'by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God.'
Salvation depends on faith, and faith depends on good works, and good works embody obedience. I have no doubt that this ought to be interpreted as follows: the salvation is a free gift for those who accept it and if that faith renders itself as genuine through good works and obedience, then the gift of everlasting life is irrevocable. There is the "Calling of God", of course, but ...[text shortened]... [i.e. who believe God has "saved" them] do not have faith that is rendered "dead" by no good works.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidOne could come to that conclusion, for sure. But I have no regrets about it.
"My 25 years as an adult Christian..." clearly got you nowhere.
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@ghost-of-a-duke saidIn terms of interpretation, good works are necessary. I agree. Salvation is a gift. It is irrevocable for those whose faith is "living" and "genuine". Those whose faith is "dead" or becomes "dead" are not "saved". Faith without good works - and by extension obedience - is "dead".
Good works are a necessary consequence of faith, but as the Bible makes clear, 'by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God.'
@ghost-of-a-duke saidI think my understanding of scripture is fine. If you disagree with it, that's OK. Maybe, with these disagreements, we would feel the stakes were high if were both Christians.
I was referring more to your understanding of scripture.
@fmf saidA Christian is saved by grace, through faith. This faith is irrevocable and can not be lost. Good works are a consequence of this faith and evidence that the Christian has indeed been transformed by the Spirit.
In terms of interpretation, good works are necessary. I agree. Salvation is a gift. It is irrevocable for those faith us "living" and "genuine". Those whose faith is "dead" or becomes "dead" are not "saved". Faith without good works - and by extension obedience - is "dead".
A dead faith was never genuine, but merely lip service.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidI don't agree fully with this interpretation for the reasons I have given in some detail over the past several pages.
A Christian is saved by grace, through faith. This faith is irrevocable and can not be lost. Good works are a consequence of this faith and evidence that the Christian has indeed been transformed by the Spirit.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidGood works do not take place without decisions to engage in them. Someone may believe in God and Jesus to the Nth degree, but if they argue that they will be "saved" by their faith even if they do not make the conscious decisions to engage in good works, then they have misunderstood the NT, I say.
A dead faith was never genuine, but merely lip service.
@fmf saidI like to win an academic argument.
I think my understanding of scripture is fine. If you disagree with it, that's OK. Maybe, with these disagreements, we would feel the stakes were high if were both Christians.
@fmf saidBut the interpretation is fully supported by the scripture I have provided.
I don't agree fully with this interpretation for the reasons I have given in some detail over the past several pages.