At what point in time does salvation begin?

Originally posted by KellyJay
To tell you the truth I don't think He changes His mind according to circumstances
either since His foreknowledge would never allow Him to be shocked or surprised
by anything at all that occurs. I think He allows us to either go left or right and sets
up for our choices accordingly, which is why I agree when God gives an "If"
statement we need to take t ...[text shortened]... His mercy, love, and grace are being offered right now and at no other time
will this be true.

Some assert that
God typically does change His mind (Jer. 18:5-10; Joel 2:13; Jon.
4:2), describe Him doing so (Exod. 32:14; Amos 7:3, 6; Jon. 3:10),
or at least assume that He might (Jer. 26:3; Joel 2:14; Jon. 3:9).
Just my opinion, but I don't think God knows everything that is going to happen.

It sounds like blasphemy to some, but I am leaning to the "open view" of God.
That is, he has a very good idea of what will happen, and he can make events happen and no one can stop him. For example Jesus WILL return, everything in the book of Revelation WILL happen. God will make things he has promised happen.
But to say God knows what I will do next? He has a good idea and unlimited resources at his disposal, but sometimes he is wrong.

Exposition of open theism

In short, open theism says that since God and humans are free, God's knowledge is dynamic and God's providence flexible. While several versions of traditional theism would picture God's knowledge of the future as a singular, fixed trajectory, open theism would see it as a plurality of branching possibilities, with some possibilities becoming settled as time moves forward.[5][6] Thus, the future as well as God's knowledge of it is open (hence "open" theism). Other versions of classical theism hold that God fully determines the future, entailing that there is no free choice (the future is closed). Yet other versions of classical theism hold that even though there is freedom of choice, God's omniscience necessitates God foreknowing what free choices are made (God's foreknowledge is closed). Open theists hold that these versions of classical theism are out of sync with:

the biblical concept of God
the biblical understanding of divine and creaturely freedom

and/or result in incoherence. Open Theists tend to emphasize that God's most fundamental character trait is love, and that this trait is unchangeable. They also (in contrast to traditional theism) tend to hold that the biblical portrait is of a God deeply moved by creation, experiencing a variety of feelings in response to it.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_theism

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Some assert that
God typically does change His mind (Jer. 18:5-10; Joel 2:13; Jon.
4:2), describe Him doing so (Exod. 32:14; Amos 7:3, 6; Jon. 3:10),
or at least assume that He might (Jer. 26:3; Joel 2:14; Jon. 3:9).
Just my opinion, but I don't think God knows everything that is going to happen.

It sounds like blasphemy to some, but I am leaning ...[text shortened]... g a variety of feelings in response to it.[7][/quote]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_theism

It's an interesting idea. I had a similar discussion with a son in law.

For myself I concluded that it just may be both. God knows everything that will ever happen throughout eternity and yet acts on the present assuming an infinite number of possibilities may occur in the next moment.

Not sure the word "assuming" is the correct one or whether what I said makes any sense. And I'm not really sure I know anything about God's infinite wisdom other than I know that He has it.

Originally posted by josephw
It's an interesting idea. I had a similar discussion with a son in law.

For myself I concluded that it just may be both. God knows everything that will ever happen throughout eternity and yet acts on the present assuming an infinite number of possibilities may occur in the next moment.

Not sure the word "assuming" is the correct one or whether what I ...[text shortened]... 'm not really sure I know anything about God's infinite wisdom other than I know that He has it.

I know what you mean, I am still trying to sort it all out myself. It does help explaining some of the mentioned verses.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Some assert that
God typically does change His mind (Jer. 18:5-10; Joel 2:13; Jon.
4:2), describe Him doing so (Exod. 32:14; Amos 7:3, 6; Jon. 3:10),
or at least assume that He might (Jer. 26:3; Joel 2:14; Jon. 3:9).
Just my opinion, but I don't think God knows everything that is going to happen.

It sounds like blasphemy to some, but I am leaning ...[text shortened]... g a variety of feelings in response to it.[7][/quote]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_theism

To begin with in the context of the discussion this was said,
"Really God isn't trustworthy if He gives His Word?"

I will grant you God does not want us to fall into His wrath, but at the same time if we
reject Him we will. I looked at the first three scriptures you gave they are below, but these
are not God going back on His Word they have more to do with His gracious and
compassionate nature again informing us of His desires to save us.

He is still a God who keeps His Word, and has set things up so that truth and judgment
will cause us to be dealt with as we should be. He desires mercy without a doubt I just
do not see Him changing His mind, but instead He is being true to His Nature here.

Jeremiah 18
5 Then the word of the LORD came to me. 6 He said, “Can I not do with you, Israel, as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, Israel. 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

Joel 2
13 Rend your heart
and not your garments.
Return to the LORD your God,
for he is gracious and compassionate,
slow to anger and abounding in love,
and he relents from sending calamity.

Jonah 4
2 He prayed to the LORD, “Isn’t this what I said, LORD, when I was still at home? That is what I tried to forestall by fleeing to Tarshish. I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity.

Originally posted by josephw
It's an interesting idea. I had a similar discussion with a son in law.

For myself I concluded that it just may be both. God knows everything that will ever happen throughout eternity and yet acts on the present assuming an infinite number of possibilities may occur in the next moment.

Not sure the word "assuming" is the correct one or whether what I ...[text shortened]... 'm not really sure I know anything about God's infinite wisdom other than I know that He has it.

I agree, if you have a universe with those in it able to do as they will, than God must be
able to be flexible otherwise no one is able to do as they will. He has to be able to see it all
and with each and every possible choice by everyone in it, be able to work it all out at the
same time each and every time.

Originally posted by KellyJay
To begin with in the context of the discussion this was said,
"Really God isn't trustworthy if He gives His Word?"

I will grant you God does not want us to fall into His wrath, but at the same time if we
reject Him we will. I looked at the first three scriptures you gave they are below, but these
are not God going back on His Word they have more to do ...[text shortened]... compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity.

I never said anything about God nor His word being untrustworthy.
I said God can change His mind. He did with Nineveh and many other places.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I never said anything about God nor His word being untrustworthy.
I said God can change His mind. He did with Nineveh and many other places.

God as He did for us lay out for us His salvation, this isn't a change in mind on His part it
is His purpose. Those who will....It is no different than when we turn towards God on the
path we were on by living in sin and turning towards God. We know now that there is a
window where God's grace is made available to us, and only in this life time that is true.

This is not God changing his mind, this is God working out His purpose of those that turn
towards Him and those that do not. I agree Nineveh and other places God was going to
lay them out, but they repented and so God justly and in His mercy had mercy on them.

Again that is not God saying something new occurred and He had to take in some new
data and with that data come up with another course of action.

John 3
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Three more questions:

1. What happens if anything to one who accepts Christ as their Lord and Savior that
makes them different from those that do accept Christ?

2. If nothing about them really changes than what is the big deal?

3. If there is a change is it so important that it will set them apart from those that have not
accepted Jesus Christ?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Three more questions:

1. What happens if anything to one who accepts Christ as their Lord and Savior that
makes them different from those that do accept Christ?

2. If nothing about them really changes than what is the big deal?

3. If there is a change is it so important that it will set them apart from those that have not
accepted Jesus Christ?

#1 I think you meant those that do NOT accept... in the latter part of your post.
The ones who receive get holy spirit or seed created by God IN them. They are cleansed from all sin and their salvation as a son will never change. Those who do not, remain body and soul and destined for death.

2. There is a lot of change. The Christian will be no different without effort. If they were fat, they will still be fat, if they were stupid they will still be stupid, etc.
But they have a new nature residing in them that they must work at to develop.

3. They are set apart by God, and destined for greatness. They will have all their needs met, they are righteous in God's eyes, they are beloved by God.
The Christian life will be tough. It is not an easy life. We must endeavor to renew our minds, to be more and more like Christ.
You will suffer persecution, struggle with the old nature, but can rejoice because in the end you win. You will also see change from the old self according to your faith, study, obedience. Fear will fade and boldness will come, greed will diminish and giving will come naturally, etc.
Those that have not accepted Jesus will continue to be dominated by the sin nature, self seeking, and remain in darkness.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
#1 I think you meant those that do NOT accept... in the latter part of your post.
The ones who receive get holy spirit or seed created by God IN them. They are cleansed from all sin and their salvation as a son will never change. Those who do not, remain body and soul and destined for death.

2. There is a lot of change. The Christian will be no diff ...[text shortened]... ted Jesus will continue to be dominated by the sin nature, self seeking, and remain in darkness.

Yes you were quite right, I was going for the difference between those that do accept
and those that do not. Do you think there are those that just appear to go through the
motions but never actually accept Christ? This work at to develop is that something they
do to earn what they have or is it instead something they do because of what they already
have? Can they do this work without God in their lives, if not why not?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Yes you were quite right, I was going for the difference between those that do accept
and those that do not. Do you think there are those that just appear to go through the
motions but never actually accept Christ? This work at to develop is that something they
do to earn what they have or is it instead something they do because of what they already
have? Can they do this work without God in their lives, if not why not?

Sure, I think there are imposters. But there will be no genuine love, no power.
I don't think it is possible to earn anything but rewards for good works or obedience.
Those that think just getting saved will have great regrets. It is the wrong mentality to have.
I don't know what the penalties or punishment is, but it will not involve losing salvation .

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Sure, I think there are imposters. But there will be no genuine love, no power.
I don't think it is possible to earn anything but rewards for good works or obedience.
Those that think just getting saved will have great regrets. It is the wrong mentality to have.
I don't know what the penalties or punishment is, but it will not involve losing salvation .

Do you think that just "getting saved" is saying a few words or do people have to actually
go to God and give themselves to Him?

This is a big question!

For me it is God either knows someone is telling Him the truth or God has nothing to do
with the process other than accept anyone at any time for any reason even if they are not
serious.

Like you I believe God will fight and stay faithful to His Word so I have a hard time
accepting someone just mouthing the words and never intending to do anything with
respect to following God ever really got saved.

If they got right with God then the Spirit of God is working in them, if they never did, than
the Spirit of God was never in them.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Do you think that just "getting saved" is saying a few words or do people have to actually
go to God and give themselves to Him?

This is a big question!

For me it is God either knows someone is telling Him the truth or God has nothing to do
with the process other than accept anyone at any time for any reason even if they are not
serious.

Like yo ...[text shortened]... Spirit of God is working in them, if they never did, than
the Spirit of God was never in them.

Someone who receives Jesus as Lord has to honestly submit to him. God is not mocked, he knows the heart.
But someone who receives in all honesty and humility and then is weak because he does not make an honest effort to study and walk the walk, because they are distracted by the world or some other reason is still saved. It is seed created in them, it cannot be undone.
Again there are grave consequences and I don't know the details but they will still be saved.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I never said anything about God nor His word being untrustworthy.
I said God can change His mind. He did with Nineveh and many other places.

But doesn't 'changing his mind' bring into question his infallibility?

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
But doesn't 'changing his mind' bring into question his infallibility?

Of course not. Because, you see, he knew in advance it was going to change, and he was quite certain it would.