Originally posted by lemon lime"How do you know X doesn't exist?" - X could be nearly anything we can imagine. Our time is limited, and rejecting arguments like this saves us long trips on false paths.
I started out as an atheist but kept running into a wall when my How do you know God exists? question was always countered with How do you know he doesn't exist?. So I switched to agnosticism. But I was not an agnostic, because all I had really done was to become an atheist who doesn't know.
Believing something to be factual and kn ...[text shortened]... herwise they are wasting a limited resource*.
*a mind is a terrible thing to waste
Atheists may or may not take other things on faith. (And I don't mean the kind of faith that is more like fidelity or trust in another person - I mean the kind that believes in the unseen). But I don't see why they must.
Can you give an example of a faith-based proposition that an atheist is committed to merely by virtue of their atheism?
Originally posted by SwissGambitEvilution.
"How do you know X doesn't exist?" - X could be nearly anything we can imagine. Our time is limited, and rejecting arguments like this saves us long trips on false paths.
Atheists may or may not take other things on faith. (And I don't mean the kind of faith that is more like fidelity or trust in another person - I mean the kind that believes in the u ...[text shortened]... faith-based proposition that an atheist is committed to merely by virtue of their atheism?
The Instructor
Originally posted by twhiteheadMy opinion of Santa is actually an opinion of the people who think the question of Santa is somehow relevant to any discussion of God.
I agree. I think atheist remains a reasonable description as long as you are not explicitly theist.
[b]Believing something to be factual and knowing it are two completely different things. iMnShO atheists who eschew the word faith and believe it has nothing to do with them and how they think are kidding themselves.
I know that the God desc ...[text shortened]... ou reserve your opinion? Do you see yourself as someone who doesn't know whether Santa exists?[/b]
I believe the Santa story works to insure mistrust of adults in very young children. Whether or not this is the intent of the Santa story is irrelevant. The fact is when you tell children something you know isn't true, and it is something they will inevitably find to be false, conditions for mistrust have been created and mistrust is the inevitable result. After mistrust of adults in general has been established then mistrust of religion comes later, because of the obvious connection between the Santa story and God. But it all starts with mistrusting the people those children are most dependent on... their parents.
I understood this at a very young age, so even before I met my future wife and we had children I knew better than to walk into this trap. I wouldn't tell them there was no Santa Clause, I would wait until they asked and then say no. Their little minds suffered no harm, because if they didn't already doubt it they wouldn't have bothered to ask. And they will always ask, because even very young children have enough going on upstairs to figure these things out for themselves.
Originally posted by lemon limeI generally agree with you, except I actually think the whole Santa thing has the opposite effect on some people ie the children get use to a lie being treated as the truth and thus have less problems dealing with theism later on. I think children raised without theism or Santa, are less likely to give any credit to religion if it is introduced to them at a later date.
I believe the Santa story works to insure mistrust of adults in very young children.
I am generally against lying to children and find it amazing how many people seem to think that totally outrageous lying to children is not only acceptable but standard practice.
I notice though that you never said anything about your faith that Santa doesn't exist. Do you deny having such faith, or is your strawman starting to fray at the ends?
Originally posted by twhiteheadAlmost every time you employ a strawman you claim it's my strawman. I never said any atheist is not rational. I think you might be reacting to what you believe I'm saying rather than simply taking statements at face value and for what they literally mean. If so, this can easily lead to confusion. If not, then I'm stumped and don't know what our communication problem is or what to do about it.
And you are yet to show that any atheist is not rational, instead you seem to keep using the strawman that some atheists refuse to all their belief that no god exists a belief.
The second half of your statement was so garbled I'm tempted to wait until you rephrase it, but I believe the gist of it has to do with whether something an atheist believes can be called a belief or not. I don't understand why this is worth discussing, either a belief is something that is believed or it isn't. Expressing the same idea with slightly different wording doesn't change the meaning of the idea or the word(s) used to express that idea.
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Originally posted by twhiteheadFaith that Santa doesn't exist? What does that mean, and what strawman are you referring to? Are you talking about Kelly Jays avatar? I said nothing about Kelly Jays avatar and you know it! This is yet another strawman argument you have pulled out of thin air.
I notice though that you never said anything about your faith that Santa doesn't exist. Do you deny having such faith, or is your strawman starting to fray at the ends?
So, how do ya like having phony strawman accusations tossed your own way?
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Originally posted by twhiteheadI don't see the connection. If you've already learned to mistrust a Santa story and the people who told you that story, how does that translate into you trusting a religion the Santa story is loosely based on, and the people who tell it? How many people continue to believe in Santa Claus well into adulthood? A few (maybe), but I'm fairly sure there aren't very many.
I generally agree with you, except I actually think the whole Santa thing has the opposite effect on some people ie the children get use to a lie being treated as the truth and thus have less problems dealing with theism later on. I think children raised without theism or Santa, are less likely to give any credit to religion if it is introduced to them at ...[text shortened]... doesn't exist. Do you deny having such faith, or is your strawman starting to fray at the ends?
I recognised where my own mistrust of religion came from. I didn't forget where it started. An atheist who is unwilling to confront himself and examine his own beliefs is just as deluded and no better off as anyone who pursues a religion for no rational or godly reason.
Edit: A observation can arguably be correct or incorrect, but observations aren't necessarily strawmen. I don't acknowdledge special status to athiests allowing them to play by a different set of rules.
The Santa argument is as common as it is nonsensical. If anything, misleading a child with a Santa story they are sure to discover is a lie supports and encourages an atheistic view of life. Negative re-inforcement does not draw people, it repels them.
Originally posted by googlefudgeI do not believe you refuted anything I've said, not attempting to be rude
Look KJ... We know you think that.
We can read and you have said the same thing over and over and over again.
But while you have repeated yourself ad nauseum, your arguments/points have
been rebutted.
People have presented counter arguments that rebut (or even refute) yours.
What should happen is you read peoples rebuttals and then respond ...[text shortened]... ree
with them, coming up with counter arguments that address the points that they were making.
at all either. You just seem to want to avoid the simple truth that is you
deny something so foundational you don't have it. Not sure why you
believe that is refuted.
Kelly
Originally posted by googlefudgeIt does not have to be a result of Atheism, only that a godless driving force
Also, evolution does not follow from the lack of belief in gods OR the belief in
lack of gods and is not a result of atheism.
And not all atheist (depressingly) accept evolution.
move the process forward for it to be part of a system of beliefs.
Kelly
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Originally posted by SwissGambitEvolution is the most obvious, and some other examples come to mind, but mentioning them will only open up a pandoras box and inspire the same old arguments that have been going on for as long as I have been alive... this debate has actually been going on for centuries, but I cannot attest to any personal experience of what was happening before I was born.
Can you give an example of a faith-based proposition that an atheist is committed to merely by virtue of their atheism?
Originally posted by lemon limeEvolution is not a faith-based belief, nor is it a required belief for an atheist.
Evolution is the most obvious, and some other examples come to mind, but mentioning them will only open up a pandoras box and inspire the same old arguments that have been going on for as long as I have been alive... this debate has actually been going on for centuries, but I cannot attest to any personal experience of what was happening before I was born.
Got a better example?