atheism is a belief system

Originally posted by KellyJay
Context: I'm not suggesting that they sit in a room and say how can we
make this happen without God or gods. I'm saying that is all they can do
is look for reasons for things and none of their explanations will have God
or gods in them, thus they bring in built in blinders.
Kelly

Actually, that is exactly what you did say.

You said they 'look for any way make things work without god'. That statement is simply untrue.

The fact that you cannot admit that your previous comment was not what you intended to say and was poorly phrased shows your approach to this debate. Arguing that it should be read in 'context' is simply a cop out.

And, as I have said before, they are not looking for explanations in areas where the existence of god is a relevant consideration. The fact that god does not figure in any of the explanations they are looking for reflects this. They have no blinders. If they were interested in questions where the existence of god might be a relevant consideration, they would be open to an answer involving the existence of god. But they aren't.

The fact that you think all atheists have 'blinders' just shows how you want to label all atheists the same way, and in a prejudicial fashion.

Originally posted by RJHinds
They used to say God does not exist. I hope I have been helpful in making them doubt that.

The Instructor

Have you been married before?

I just wonder, as you seem prey to the triumph of hope over experience.

Originally posted by DeepThought
I also argue that someone who claims to be an atheist should be believed (subject to them not going to church etc.) and [b]someone who claims to be an agnostic shouldn't be told they're really an atheist. .....[/b]

Who is telling you that you are not an agnostic?

Which part of their not being mutually exclusive do you not understand?

You are ALSO an atheist. (assuming you do not have a belief that gods exist).
This doesn't diminish or replace your 'identity' as an agnostic.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I did not say they are looking for ways to make things work without God!
I said that was all they could do, it isn't a matter of effort, once you reject
God and gods than what you have left are views that do not have God or
gods. If you are left with only those without God or gods, than no matter
the odds you have to believe something over came the odds, you've nothing
left.
Kelly

You do not need to believe something exists to list it as a POSSIBLE cause of observed
phenomena.

You can [and many do] include the supernatural/gods as possible 'explanations' without
believing that they are true unless and until they are demonstrated to be so.

And as ever you have a huge gaping hole in your reasoning because you entirely miss out
a crucial answer to any question.

I DON'T KNOW.


You keep saying that atheists MUST explain things without gods.

And I/we say (among other things) that atheists don't HAVE to explain anything at all as
(where relevant) we can simply say I DON'T KNOW.




Now of course it is much more satisfying to be able to explain things and not to have to say
i don't know, but it's not a requirement of atheism that you be able to explain anything, let alone
everything.

Fortunately science is doing an awesome job of explaining just about everything, and the amount
of I don't know is diminishing rapidly.



In short, it's helpful to atheism as a cause to be able to explain things without the need for gods.
Which is why you are all so very very afraid of evolution.

But it is not a requirement.

Originally posted by Rank outsider
Actually, that is exactly what you did say.

You said they 'look for any way make things work without god'. That statement is simply untrue.

The fact that you cannot admit that your previous comment was not what you intended to say and was poorly phrased shows your approach to this debate. Arguing that it should be read in 'context' is simply a ...[text shortened]... just shows how you want to label all atheists the same way, and in a prejudicial fashion.

No, I'll give you it was poorly said.

So answer my question, will Atheism acknowledge God or gods in any
possible cause for anything in the universe, or will it only look for a natural
reasons? If you say yes God and gods can be thought of as an answer to
some questions, than tell me what would those would be.
Kelly

Originally posted by googlefudge
You do not need to believe something exists to list it as a POSSIBLE cause of observed
phenomena.

You can [and many do] include the supernatural/gods as possible 'explanations' without
believing that they are true unless and until they are demonstrated to be so.

And as ever you have a huge gaping hole in your reasoning because you entirely miss ...[text shortened]... ch is why you are all so very very afraid of evolution.

But it is not a requirement.

I can agree with anyone who says I don't know, I don't think that flies when
you say some ways are not true which are those that would include God or
gods.

I don't know implies they don't know, I don't know, but I don't believe that
God or gods is real implies that some knowledge actually dismisses a very
large possible cause.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
No, I'll give you it was poorly said.

So answer my question, will Atheism acknowledge God or gods in any
possible cause for anything in the universe, or will it only look for a natural
reasons? If you say yes God and gods can be thought of as an answer to
some questions, than tell me what would those would be.
Kelly

Atheism isn't an entity of which you can ask that question.

Atheism is simply not holding beliefs about the existence of gods.


Atheists are people who may or may not form beliefs about things other than gods,
so you could ask if atheists could list the supernatural or gods as POSSIBLE causes
for observed phenomena.
And the answer is that some atheists do list gods and the supernatural as possible
causes for things they see.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Atheism isn't an entity of which you can ask that question.

Atheism is simply not holding beliefs about the existence of gods.


Atheists are people who may or may not form beliefs about things other than gods,
so you could ask if atheists could list the supernatural or gods as POSSIBLE causes
for observed phenomena.
And the answer is that some atheists do list gods and the supernatural as possible
causes for things they see.

Please, I've seen people here say "science says" enough to make me think
that is an entity that can talk.


Atheism simply does not hold beliefs about the existence of God or gods,
so everything it accepts will be true to that.

An Atheist who has not formed a belief about God or gods will also hold
true to that as well.

If you would entertain God or gods as real are you an Atheist?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I can agree with anyone who says I don't know, I don't think that flies when
you say some ways are not true which are those that would include God or
gods.

I don't know implies they don't know, I don't know, but I don't believe that
God or gods is real implies that some knowledge actually dismisses a very
large possible cause.
Kelly

Kelly. Please pay attention to this.

A weak atheist simply LACKS a belief that gods exist.
They do NOT have a belief that gods DON'T exist.
Otherwise they would be a strong atheist... like me.

So a weak atheist would not say that they "BELIEVE that
gods don't exist".
They would also not say that they "DON'T BELIEVE that gods
are real".


They might, while still being weak atheists, say that they don't
believe that gods or the supernatural were the cause of a particular
event.

For example, if you drop a rubber ball on concrete and it bounces,
a weak atheist could happily claim that it was because of natural
physical processes and not because a god willed it without disbelieving
in gods in general.

What you don't seem to understand is that a weak atheist has not necessarily
DISMISSED gods.
They simply haven't accepted them as being proven real yet.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Please, I've seen people here say "science says" enough to make me think
that is an entity that can talk.

Science is a methodology. Doing things scientifically has certain results. These results could be said to be science talking. Atheism, is not a methodology. It doesn't talk.

Originally posted by KellyJay
No, I'll give you it was poorly said.

So answer my question, will Atheism acknowledge God or gods in any
possible cause for anything in the universe, or will it only look for a natural
reasons? If you say yes God and gods can be thought of as an answer to
some questions, than tell me what would those would be.
Kelly

Thank you. No problem.

I think googlefudge has answered your question, and probably better than I will. But here's my version.

"Atheism" cannot answer this question, as the answers are different for different atheists.

Some atheists will acknowledge God or gods as a possible cause for some things in the universe.

Those questions might include, for example, 'How was the universe created?', 'Why are we here?', 'What is the purpose of life?', 'Why do human beings have moral values?'.

Nothing unusual here when talking about gods.

The problem here, I think, is that you instinctively believe that all atheists have rejected God or gods as a possible cause. This is not the case. You may just have to believe me when I tell you that there are what I would call 'reluctant atheists'. They desperately want to believe that a god exists, but they simply don't believe it. To suggest that they are looking to exclude god from everything is just not correct. If anything, their mindset is the complete opposite.

Other atheists will outright reject the idea that god is a possible cause of anything, and say it is possible to prove that God does not exist.

This is why using the term "Atheism" and "Atheists" indiscriminately provokes such a reaction, as it misrepresents the diverse group of people that are atheists.

We are all prone to this (I am sure I must have used the term 'theists' on occasion when I meant 'some theists'😉, but the less this happens the less the chance of causing misunderstanding and possible offence.

Originally posted by Rank outsider
Have you been married before?

I just wonder, as you seem prey to the triumph of hope over experience.

I have been married since 1967, but not to an atheist. Why should I have to be married to an atheist to know about atheists?

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
I have been married since 1967, but not to an atheist. Why should I have to be married to an atheist to know about atheists?

The Instructor

Atheists include evilution as part of their religious belief.

YouTube

The Instructor

Originally posted by googlefudge
Kelly. Please pay attention to this.

A weak atheist simply LACKS a belief that gods exist.
They do NOT have a belief that gods DON'T exist.
Otherwise they would be a strong atheist... like me.

So a weak atheist would not say that they "BELIEVE that
gods don't exist".
They would also not say that they "DON'T BELIEVE that gods
are real".


...[text shortened]... ssarily
DISMISSED gods.
They simply haven't accepted them as being proven real yet.

The whole point is that Atheism does not hold to God or gods, correct?
Splitting hairs about strong or weak, if they have an open mind about
God or gods they are not in denial so I don't think we can say they are a
true Atheist. If they hold no view about God or gods it is just as strong
as someone who rejects God or gods outright, they will not be bringing in
God or gods on any attempt to explain anything, they will work with what
they hold to be true, which is NOT God or gods.
Kelly

Originally posted by Rank outsider
Thank you. No problem.

I think googlefudge has answered your question, and probably better than I will. But here's my version.

"Atheism" cannot answer this question, as the answers are different for different atheists.

Some atheists will acknowledge God or gods as a possible cause for some things in the universe.

Those questions might inc ...[text shortened]... pens the less the chance of causing misunderstanding and possible offence.

If you want to tell me that Atheism is not a rejection of God or gods, well
than I'll accept your version of Atheism is different than mine and we can
end our discussion.
Kelly