Atheist Comment Ends Badly for Indonesia Man

Originally posted by RJHinds
That is where they go wrong. Different tradition equals different God.

Yes, we've discussed this before. I don't agree with you. The hard line Muslim fundamentalist minority here in Indonesia would agree with you though.

Originally posted by FMF
Well hardly any "Christians", "Catholics", "Hindus" or "Buddhists" here support a blasphemy law. I've never met one in 20 years, even among those who feel provoked by the kind of bigoted Muslim thugs that are featured in the OP. You've got a public official mouthing off to a journalist and enjoying his 15 minutes in the spotlight. There will be no prosecution un ...[text shortened]... th karoly, that it would make more sense for there to be just one religion. Theirs.

Well then it is the thugs who are stupid for picking on an atheist (for not believing as they do) but not equally picking on members of other religions (who also do not believe as they do).
But as I pointed out earlier, this is the norm amongst religious people, atheists are seen as more of a threat than members of other religions.

Meanwhile most Indonesian monotheists perceive they are all worshipping the same 'one' God, by way of different traditions.
Which is a sign that they don't really believe most of what they preach. Most religions are officially unequivocal that they are right any everyone else is wrong - but most members of a religion are not so sure.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Which is a sign that they don't really believe most of what they preach. Most religions are officially unequivocal that they are right any everyone else is wrong - but most members of a religion are not so sure.

Well I am not going to argue the religious people's corner when it comes to how much sense or consistency their beliefs exhibit nor the integrity of their organised leadership. 'Competing' religions being officially unequivocal that they are right any everyone else is wrong in the mainstream public domain here in Indonesia is a cultural and constitutional no no.

Originally posted by FMF
Well I am not going to argue the religious people's corner when it comes to how much sense or consistency their beliefs exhibit nor the integrity of their organised leadership. 'Competing' religions being officially unequivocal that they are right any everyone else is wrong in the mainstream public domain here in Indonesia is a cultural and constitutional no no.

So its OK to say "I am Muslim", but not OK to say "I am not Christian"?

Originally posted by twhitehead
So its OK to say "I am Muslim", but not OK to say "I am not Christian"?

I think you are under the impression that I somehow approve of religious bigotry or am not as dissatisfied as you are with the circumstances laid out in the story in the OP.

The 1945 constitution did not make provision for atheism as a 'belief system' as an alternative to theism. It's clearly very imperfect. The vast majority of people here are theists and, for many, atheism seems rather sociopathic and unfathomable, or an [indistinct] threat that creates the kind of distaste/outrage/panic that "communists" did in the eyes of many ordinary Americans in the 1950s.

I would say that, in the Indonesian public domain, it is far more hazardous to say "I am not a Muslim anymore" than it is to say "I am not Christian".

It could be 20 or more years before the Indonesian constitution is amended to fully grant non-theists the same status and protections as theists. Whether I am being pessimistic or optimistic about that timeline is for others to say.

Originally posted by FMF
I think you are under the impression that I somehow approve of religious bigotry or am not as dissatisfied as you are with the circumstances laid out in the story in the OP.

No, not at all. I am not arguing against you. I am merely pointing out how silly peoples behaviour is.

The 1945 constitution did not make provision for atheism as a 'belief system' as an alternative to theism.
That a constitution lists belief systems is a problem in itself.

It's clearly very imperfect. The vast majority of people here are theists and, for many, atheism seems rather sociopathic and unfathomable, or an [indistinct] threat that creates the kind of distaste/outrage/panic that "communists" did in the eyes of many ordinary Americans in the 1950s.
Which was my point from the beginning. Theists are more comfortable with fellow deluded souls because it gives them licence to act deluded even if it is a different and incompatible delusion.

I would say that, in the Indonesian public domain, it is far more hazardous to say "I am not a Muslim anymore" than it is to say "I am not Christian".
In general, Muslims frown on people leaving their religion more than Christians do with theirs. But I believe some denominations are that way too.

Originally posted by Agerg
I agree with this - balls to what people think about lying (doubly so if it has a scriptural basis), I'd have no reservations about professing belief in some religion if I figured doing otherwise would get me killed or incarcerated.
I consider myself lucky I live in Britain where atheism is quite common.

So, in other words, you'll be joining up with the Anti-Christ when he comes and proclaims himself God and threatens to kill everyone who does not worship him?

Yeah that's gutsy. So you have zero commitment to your convictions?

Originally posted by Dasa
People can have the right to believe anything.........and they do.

However they have no right to teach false spirituality/religion/science to society - which can cause the receiver to mis-use his entire life.

Exactly, and this is precisely why I've been telling you to stop lying for months now. You magnify your sin with every person you turn from God.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Yeah that's gutsy. So you have zero commitment to your convictions?

Do you think Alexander [in the OP] should take the stint in prison on the chin to demonstrate his commitment to his convictions?

Originally posted by FMF
Do you think Alexander [in the OP] should take the stint in prison on the chin to demonstrate his commitment to his convictions?

No. I personally think he should leave the country and go somewhere where he can live as he chooses.

However, if he's already been incarcerated, then if he believes there is no God, then yes, he should basically tell them to %#*@ off if they demand he choose a religion. If I am ever jailed for my beliefs, no amount of incarceration or torture or even death will make me deny God.

If he's not willing to die for his beliefs, then maybe he needs to re-examine his beliefs and ascertain whether he still believes them.

Originally posted by twhitehead
That a constitution lists belief systems is a problem in itself.

There's a great historical realpolitik debate right there. For all intents and purposes, the choice was between an Islamic Republic or the Pancasila constitution. Personally, I would say, thank goodness the constitution that lists belief systems came out on top.

Originally posted by Suzianne
However, if he's already been incarcerated, then if he believes there is no God, then yes, he should basically tell them to %#*@ off if they demand he choose a religion. If I am ever jailed for my beliefs, no amount of incarceration or torture or even death will make me deny God.

So you have never been incarcerated for your beliefs - and almost certainly never will be - but you think he should accept being incarcerated for his beliefs?

Originally posted by Suzianne
If he's not willing to die for his beliefs, then maybe he needs to re-examine his beliefs and ascertain whether he still believes them.

You reckon he should be willing to die for his belief that there is no God?

Why would that be?

It is easy to have the moral high ground when not faced with death.

As for me. If I had to lie to some nut jobs to save my life, I would also do so. To me, life is short, and there is no benefit whatsoever for me (or even anyone else) to say to them, "I am an atheist!". They aren't worthy of my honesty. To an atheist, when he/she dies, their beliefs will not affect the outcome. Therefore there is no motivation to be honest to people like these. I will then seek to get to an environment where it is safe to be open about my views.

Originally posted by FMF
So you have never been incarcerated for your beliefs - and almost certainly never will be - but you think he should accept being incarcerated for his beliefs?

Au contraire, mon frere...

I fully expect to not only be incarcerated for my beliefs eventually, but to be put to death for them*. You forget, I believe that both the Tribulation and the AntiChrist are coming.

I don't think he should merely accept his incarceration. He should hire a lawyer and fight this with everything he's got. His incarceration is clearly a violation of the country's constitution.






* That is, if I don't end up dying from lack of medicine I need to survive in a catastrophe. I'm Type 1 diabetic and if, for some reason, I can't get my insulin, like some natural disaster where access to drugs is cut off, I'm basically screwed.