Atheist Comment Ends Badly for Indonesia Man

Originally posted by Rajk999
The way I see it any opinion like "God does not exist", is a belief.
The man believes that God does not exist.
I believe that God does exist.
All beliefs.

But he is not being persecuted for that belief. He is being persecuted because other people believe different and are threatened by his lack of belief in their beliefs.

Originally posted by FMF
Prosecuted by who?

I don't know, neither did Alessandro.

The real justice should be tht the god himself, he who you blaspheme, should punish you, not any human official, nor anyone else mere mortal.

I'e said many times, that christian god is evil, god does not exist, creationism stinks, and so on, and he has never punished me. He doesn't care. Nor should the Indonesian governement do.

Originally posted by FMF
What are the forum's thoughts on Alexander?

If I were him I'd probably pretend to repent until I could get the hell out of Indonesia, or learn to live with being a fake Christian. I'm not so fond of my atheism that I'm willing to be persecuted for it. Unlike certain people of faith, I have no divine promise of reward for enduring persecution.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
If I were him I'd probably pretend to repent until I could get the hell out of Indonesia, or learn to live with being a fake Christian. I'm not so fond of my atheism that I'm willing to be persecuted for it. Unlike certain people of faith, I have no divine promise of reward for enduring persecution.

I agree with this - balls to what people think about lying (doubly so if it has a scriptural basis), I'd have no reservations about professing belief in some religion if I figured doing otherwise would get me killed or incarcerated.
I consider myself lucky I live in Britain where atheism is quite common.

Originally posted by Agerg
I agree with this - balls to what people think about lying (doubly so if it has a scriptural basis), I'd have no reservations about professing belief in some religion if I figured doing otherwise would get me killed or incarcerated.
I consider myself lucky I live in Britain where atheism is quite common.

On the other hand, not standing up to intolerance is what allows it to continue.

Whether you feel any particular issue is important enough to you to justify standing up for
it is a personal question.

But being allowed to believe what you want and do so without persecution is traditionally
one of the big ones in terms of things people are prepared to fight for.

I also consider myself lucky to live in the mostly secular British isles, where being an atheist
is both common and non-controversial. And because I can speak up for atheism with no fear
of reprisal, I feel that I have a certain duty to do so.
In support of all those who, like this guy, can't speak up without fear of reprisals.

EDIT: For those who do fear others reaction if they reveal their beliefs I concur that lying
is not only not morally reprehensible, but actually recommended.

Originally posted by googlefudge
On the other hand, not standing up to intolerance is what allows it to continue.

Whether you feel any particular issue is important enough to you to justify standing up for
it is a personal question.

But being allowed to believe what you want and do so without persecution is traditionally
one of the big ones in terms of things people are prepar beliefs I concur that lying
is not only not morally reprehensible, but actually recommended.

Hmm...'in spirit' (as it were), I support (the cause of) those other than myself willing to make a stand and admire their conviction; that said I have less admiration for misplaced bravery - especially if there is only one feasible outcome (a nasty one).
To that end, I'll readily shoot down a Christian's beliefs and faith to sh** on these boards (protected by anonymity) but doing the same in person (if I don't have back up) is another matter. Like many others, I value my own self preservation too highly to jeopardize it for some ideal of a better world.

Though I would go so far as of saying "oh yeah - he went *THAT* way!" if some torch toting fundie asked which way the atheist went.

Originally posted by Rajk999
The way I see it any opinion like "God does not exist", is a belief.
The man believes that God does not exist.
I believe that God does exist.
All beliefs.

You can believe that a god or gods do exist,
You can believe that a god or gods don't exist,
OR
You can not hold a belief either way.

If you say 'I believe that god or gods don't exist' then you have a belief.
If you say 'I don't believe that god or gods exist' then you have an absence of belief.

Not believing in something is not a belief, it's an absence of one.

Also, it's perfectly possible to make statements like "god probably doesn't exist" or
similar without 'believing' that god doesn't exist.
The arguments around the use of the word 'exist' in the absence of any evidence at all
is a longer one than I will have in this post.

I don't know if in this particular instance he simply doesn't believe in a god or gods or if
he actively believes in the non-existence of god or gods.

Most people tend towards sloppy use of language and unless the questioner specifically
framed the questions in such a way as to make the subtleties of meaning clear his
answers might not accurately reflect his actual beliefs (or absence of them).

And I suspect that in this instance the difference between the two positions would be
irrelevant to all concerned.

So he may or may not have a belief that gods don't exist, the one thing we can know for
sure from these reports is that he almost certainly doesn't have a belief IN god or gods.

Originally posted by FMF
‘God Does Not Exist’ Comment Ends Badly for Indonesia Man

An Indonesian civil servant who posted “God does not exist” on his Facebook page has been taken into police custody for his own protection after he was badly beaten.

The man, identified as Alexander, 31, now faces the prospect of losing his job, or even being jailed, if he fails to repent and accept ...[text shortened]... tp://www.thejakartaglobe.com/home/god-does-not-exist-comment-ends-badly-for-indonesia-man/492370

Along the the lines of twitehead, they say he has to choose one of six religions.
Very Silly. Now if it were one it would make more sense.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Along the the lines of twitehead, they say he has to choose one of six religions.
Very Silly. Now if it were one it would make more sense.

Why would it make more sense "if it were one"? Why would Indonesia "make more sense" if it were an Islamic state than a state whose constitution makes provision for several religions?

Originally posted by FMF
Why would it make more sense "if it were one"? Why would Indonesia "make more sense" if it were an Islamic state than a state whose constitution makes provision for several religions?

Sounds like choosing a political party in a way.
He's going to end up having a divided, quiet voice whatever religion he chooses. If thats what he ends up doing.

Originally posted by Agerg
Hmm...'in spirit' (as it were), I support (the cause of) those other than myself willing to make a stand and admire their conviction; that said I have less admiration for misplaced bravery - especially if there is only one feasible outcome (a nasty one).

I like many others value my own self preservation and wouldn't want to endanger it by making a stand aga ...[text shortened]... h - he went *that* way!" when some pitchfork toting fundie asks which way the atheist went.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came%E2%80%A6


There things that people can do in rich, safe, secular, western societies that can have
effects on those who don't.

We can join campaigns with organisations like 'amnesty international' or
'Atheist Alliance International' and effect our foreign policy both directly via campaigning or
via our votes in our elections.

None of which risks endangering your self.


Now there are a plethora of good causes to support in various ways and again which if any
a person supports is a personal choice.

None of which in this country involve any risk to you.

For those in places like Indonesia however, there are no safe options, and so like people who
successfully fought for freedoms everywhere, throughout history, brave people stood up and
made their voices heard.

Every fight for freedoms has always started as a hopeless cause where there was only one
(nasty) outcome... or so people at the time said.


Now if I was in the country would I do what he did... probably not, I would find a different way to
protest (and/or leave).
But calling what he did 'misplaced bravery' is both wrong and an insult to him, and everyone who
did as he did throughout history which won us the freedoms we have today.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Sounds like choosing a political party in a way.
He's going to end up having a divided, quiet voice whatever religion he chooses. If thats what he ends up doing.

So to all the Christians and Buddhists and Hindus I know here who are able to be who they are and go about their religious business because of a multi-faith constitution, the message from you is that it would "make more sense" if their country was an Islamic State?

Originally posted by FMF
Why would it make more sense "if it were one"? Why would Indonesia "make more sense" if it were an Islamic state than a state whose constitution makes provision for several religions?

If you have a blasphemy law that says you shouldn't insult god...
but have six contradictory religions with different versions and numbers of gods...
Then that blasphemy law makes no sense because each religion blasphemes the others.

However if you only have one religion and god or set of gods then the logical problem disappears.


Now given that no religion has any rational evidentiary backing then any law against insulting the
imaginary being/s at the centre of any religion is nonsensical.

But if you accept the idea of having a blasphemy law, then it only makes sense if you have actually
decided which god or gods actually exist that you shouldn't blaspheme against.

Originally posted by FMF
So to all the Christians and Buddhists and Hindus I know here who are able to be who they are and go about their religious business because of a multi-faith constitution, the message from you is that it would "make more sense" if their country was an Islamic State?

No it would make more sense if the country was secular and had no blasphemy law.

The point he was making (I think) was that the blasphemy law doesn't make sense in
a multi faith country.

Originally posted by FMF
So to all the Christians and Buddhists and Hindus I know here who are able to be who they are and go about their religious business because of a multi-faith constitution, the message from you is that it would "make more sense" if their country was an Islamic State?

no. I am not saying that at all. I'm saying this guy is being forced to choose one of six religions after he's professed he doesn't believe in god, so whatever choice he makes is just going to be rather silly and funny in a way, dont you think?