Atheists against Jesus?

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Yes, it's the connotations of 'suicidal' that get people het up. Even a willing sacrifice must be considered suicidal, strictly speaking, I dare say. It's no argument against the validity or otherwise of Jesus' teachings.

Incidentally, is a prisoner who is condemned to death and resigned to being executed also suicidal? One who doesn't struggle until their last breath, I mean. Because Jesus was condemned to death, after all.

Or Galileo not submitting to the Church's pressures...

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Yes, it's the connotations of 'suicidal' that get people het up. Even a willing sacrifice must be considered suicidal, strictly speaking, I dare say. It's no argument against the validity or otherwise of Jesus' teachings.

Incidentally, is a prisoner who is condemned to death and resigned to being executed also suicidal? One who doesn't struggle until their last breath, I mean. Because Jesus was condemned to death, after all.

But Jesus didn't die, did he? Some says he is still alive, living forever. Under these circumstances I wouldn't mind one death sentence or another myself if it gives me some prosperity...

Originally posted by Palynka
Jesus isn't thought to have been omniscient (at least in his earthly form) so your whole argument is bunk.

The whole thing was supposedly planned years in advance by God. It is claimed that Jesus was fully aware of the events about to take place (and even begged to be let of the hook.)

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Incidentally, is a prisoner who is condemned to death and resigned to being executed also suicidal? One who doesn't struggle until their last breath, I mean. Because Jesus was condemned to death, after all.

Is see 'suicidal' as wanting to die because you don't want to live. I wouldn't call a resigned prisoner suicidal. If however there is the slightest possibility that by struggling he could get out of it then by not struggling his actions are suicidal.
When my grandmother was old she said she was tired of life and was ready to die. She did not however kill herself. I would say that is not suicidal but similar to your 'resigned prisoner'.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
But Jesus didn't die, did he? Some says he is still alive, living forever. Under these circumstances I wouldn't mind one death sentence or another myself if it gives me some prosperity...

He supposedly did die and then latter was resurrected. You cannot be resurrected unless you die. The whole three days thing is very important.
Of course the word 'death' means something completely different to a theist (or anyone who believes in the afterlife) than it does to a typical atheist.
In fact Christians frequently use the word 'death' to mean either going to hell or separation from God. My complaint is always that it is not always clear when they mean what.

Originally posted by Palynka
Jesus isn't thought to have been omniscient (at least in his earthly form) so your whole argument is bunk.

Ah, so not part of the God-head at that point? That seems strange considering God is omnipresent. Am omnipresent deity would literally even be inside Jesus' body.

And if not omniscient in his earthly form, how would he know he was going to be betrayed? He obviously knew that, and is reported to have said it at the last supper. Most of us would have said sod it to the supper and got on the next boat out of there - but not ol' Jebus. The fact remains that he willingly, knowingly waited for his death and made no attempt to prevent it. His waiting for the soldiers to come and get him is reminiscent of a man standing alone on a dark road, in the middle of the night, waiting to be run over by an oncoming juggernaut. They can both clearly see it coming, yet neither makes any attempt to move off their chosen path.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
But Jesus didn't die, did he? Some says he is still alive, living forever. Under these circumstances I wouldn't mind one death sentence or another myself if it gives me some prosperity...

Presumably you don't think he's still alive. That's the point of this thread: to respond to his teachings, as recounted in the Gospels, from an atheist perspective.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Ah, so not part of the God-head at that point? That seems strange considering God is omnipresent. Am omnipresent deity would literally even be inside Jesus' body.

And if not omniscient in his earthly form, how would he know he was going to be betrayed. He obviously knew that, and is reported to have said it at the last supper. Most of us would ha ...[text shortened]... y can both clearly see it coming, yet neither makes any attempt to move off their chosen path.

In the gospel of Mark, Jesus himself is quoted saying that he doesn't know things that the Father does. So, clearly, he was not omniscient.

All I'm saying is that you're not unlike creationists who attack evolution without really knowing much about it.

Originally posted by Palynka
In the gospel of Mark, Jesus himself is quoted saying that he doesn't know things that the Father does. So, clearly, he was not omniscient.

All I'm saying is that you're not unlike creationists who attack evolution without really knowing much about it.

Now why would he want to do a thing like that?

Originally posted by Palynka
All I'm saying is that you're not unlike creationists who attack evolution without really knowing much about it.

And I have no problem with such creationists. I try to remedy that with education. However the vast majority of creationists I encounter are not ignorant of the bits they attack but try to attack evolution with outright lies which is another story altogether.

Originally posted by twhitehead
The whole thing was supposedly planned years in advance by God. It is claimed that Jesus was fully aware of the events about to take place (and even begged to be let of the hook.)

(allegedly)

Of course he knew . There are many instances of him talking about it. I'm just highlighting that this discussion is riddled with important mistakes.

The concept of death itself for Jesus is not the same as for a common man, because...he isn't a common man. Besides, does anyone here know why suicide is frowned upon by the RCC? And why it is then clear that, even if he had been a common man, his death is not contradictory with that "directive"?

Originally posted by twhitehead
And I have no problem with such creationists. I try to remedy that with education. However the vast majority of creationists I encounter are not ignorant of the bits they attack but try to attack evolution with outright lies which is another story altogether.

Interesting. I would say they are in denial, but not outright liars. Do you think they claim something they don't believe in? Or are you saying that a repeated mistake become an outright lie when it's not corrected in face of evidence?

Because that applies here, as well, as you can see with scottishinnz insistence that Jesus "had" to be omniscient.

Originally posted by Palynka
The concept of death itself for Jesus is not the same as for a common man, because...he isn't a common man.

Actually the common man does not exist. Theists have a different concept of death from non-theists and even within those groups there are differences. Presumably, for a typical Christian, neither Jesus' death nor their own should be viewed as a termination of life but a transformation to another life. But none of that makes a suicide any less or more of a suicide, or suicidal behavior less or more so.

Besides, does anyone here know why suicide is frowned upon by the RCC?
I always thought is was a Christian thing not a RCC thing. In fact it must be in the Bible somewhere surely?
I always thought the primary reason was that committing suicide was interfering with Gods free will to kill you at his discretion not yours.

And why it is then clear that, even if he had been a common man, his death is not contradictory with that "directive"?
Did anyone say it was? I thought this all started because someone said Jesus was suicidal - I must have missed where anyone said that was contrary to his teachings.

Originally posted by Palynka
Interesting. I would say they are in denial, but not outright liars. Do you think they claim something they don't believe in? Or are you saying that a repeated mistake become an outright lie when it's not corrected in face of evidence?

I think that a significant proportion of the creationist 'material' that gets presented is outright lies that the original inventor of knew was lies. I think that quite often those who pass on these lies have know knowledge of the validity of the claim but still claim to believe it to be true (lie) even when they are really agnostic about it or have serious doubts. The more persistent ones I have met are fully aware that they are persisting lies, I have even had some admit as much.

Because that applies here, as well, as you can see with scottishinnz insistence that Jesus "had" to be omniscient.
I disagree that it can be equated.

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
27 or so books of the New Testament. Aren't they all the word of God?

Are we only considering parts of the Bible that explicitly state "Jesus said"? How many books does he show up in?

I guess I was hoping this thread would be about objections over the teachings of Jesus, though it appears to have taken over by objections over the teachings of "Christianity". Seeing as the teachings of Jesus have been taken over by the teachings of "Christianity", I guess it's fitting.