Originally posted by dizzyfingersSoldiers aren't omniscient. Often they are convinced by talented recruiting officers to sign up - with promises of foreign travel, or having their college fees paid. If the incentive is good enough relative to the perceived cost, people will take the risk. Jesus knew exactly the cost of his not running away. He knew categorically that he would be killed, and did nothing to prevent it.
Your definition would imply that all soldiers are suicidal. If not, please explain why not.
* I should say "willing soldiers" - there are some enlisted against their will.
Originally posted by scottishinnzAnd ... ?
Soldiers aren't omniscient. Often they are convinced by talented recruiting officers to sign up - with promises of foreign travel, or having their college fees paid. If the incentive is good enough [b]relative to the perceived cost, people will take the risk. Jesus knew exactly the cost of his not running away. He knew categorically that he would be killed, and did nothing to prevent it.[/b]
Originally posted by Bosse de NageWell that just brings us back to the definition of suicide.
And ...?! What's the relevance? (If you take the Christian line, of course, his action couldn't have been suicidal, since he'd have known he'd rise again. But I'm assuming you're talking about him as a mortal).
In my opinion, even if you take the Christian line, he did die, so he knowingly entered a situation that would lead to his death. Whether he rose again or not is not really relevant. I would not call his death a suicide but I would call his actions leading up to it, suicidal. I think that would be consistent with common usage of the word.
Most soldiers do not expect to die. ie they do not see it as the only possible outcome. For those that do think that death is the only outcome we do use the term 'suicide'. 'Suicide bombers', 'suicide mission' etc. This is not restricted to Muslims.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attack
Originally posted by Bosse de NageInteresting.
And ...?! What's the relevance? (If you take the Christian line, of course, his action couldn't have been suicidal, since he'd have known he'd rise again. But I'm assuming you're talking about him as a mortal).
Then there were not any sacrifice. He didn't give his life in order to take the sin of humanity?
It was only a theatrical performance. A way to show off? God wanted to show off ??? To brag of what he could do? And Jesus was safe all the time? Christianity is built upon god showing off?
Now this is a tough nut to crack...
Originally posted by twhiteheadI'm asking what the relevance is if his behavior was suicidal. He wouldn't be the first or last to die for his beliefs. Socrates did it before him. His friends urged him to escape, but he preferred to die for his beliefs. People are going 'Jesus was suicidal' as if that has some sort of relevance, which I fail to see.
Well that just brings us back to the definition of suicide.
In my opinion, even if you take the Christian line, he did die, so he knowingly entered a situation that would lead to his death. Whether he rose again or not is not really relevant. I would not call his death a suicide but I would call his actions leading up to it, suicidal. I think that would ...[text shortened]... on' etc. This is not restricted to Muslims.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_attack
There are many stories of soldiers facing certain death to save their comrades. I'm not sure if that's relevant.
Originally posted by FabianFnasYou could say that his death was the highest form of art. If you wanted to take that line.
Interesting.
Then there were not any sacrifice. He didn't give his life in order to take the sin of humanity?
It was only a theatrical performance. A way to show off? God wanted to show off ??? To brag of what he could do? And Jesus was safe all the time? Christianity is built upon god showing off?
Now this is a tough nut to crack...
Have you got something against theatre? Must be those Lutheran genes ... you can never scrub them out, you know.
Originally posted by Bosse de NageI think it is very important to note that someone was willing to die for their beliefs. I think that some Christians think it is an insult to say that Jesus was suicidal, but I think that is because the misunderstand the various meanings of the word. I suspect that some non-Christians are playing on the words usage too in order to portray a 'suicidal action' as 'suicide'. ie they want to use the fact that Jesus knew he would die and death was his stated intention, to make it look as though he was equivalent to someone who wants to die with the primary aim of ending their undesirable life.
I'm asking what the relevance is if his behavior was suicidal. He wouldn't be the first or last to die for his beliefs.
There are many stories of soldiers facing certain death to save their comrades. I'm not sure if that's relevant.
It is. It highlights the fact that if your primary aim is not to die then it is not normally called suicide - even though the action is called suicidal.
Originally posted by FabianFnasI remember Knightmeister taking that line. As far as I understood his explanation, God was trying to show us what is right by example. His analogy was when a father takes the punishment due to his son upon himself, not because he has to, not to save his son the punishment, but to show his son the need for punishment ie the validity of a system with punishment. Essentially God is being a good role model.
Interesting.
Then there were not any sacrifice. He didn't give his life in order to take the sin of humanity?
It was only a theatrical performance. A way to show off? God wanted to show off ??? To brag of what he could do? And Jesus was safe all the time? Christianity is built upon god showing off?
Now this is a tough nut to crack...
I did not fully understand it and disputed some of the assumption, but if your question is whether or not some Christians think it was mostly a show of some kind then the answer is yes.
It is amazing how many Christians think that Jesus' resurrection is proof that he was God and was telling the truth. ie they take it as the ultimate miracle. For some reason they do not see the circularity of the argument ie you must believe he was God first before you believe he actually was resurrected so his resurrection is of no use to you in validating your belief he was God.
Of course there are the 'blind followers' who think that we have sworn statements from 5000 witnesses to his resurrection 🙂
Originally posted by Bosse de NageI have nothing against theatre. Not at all. Nor Hollywood pictures.
You could say that his death was the highest form of art. If you wanted to take that line.
Have you got something against theatre? Must be those Lutheran genes ... you can never scrub them out, you know.
I saw once when Harrison Ford was killed in picutre. Not much later a saw another picutre that Harrison Ford was alive again. That's what I call miracle! The producers must be gods themselves, being able to bring back people from the deaths...
I'm not impressed by gods little stunt. I know how Holywood does it.
Originally posted by FabianFnasThe Muslim version is that there was a switch -- a follower took the fall, while Jesus ben Joseph made off into the hills. Would make a good film.
I have nothing against theatre. Not at all. Nor Hollywood pictures.
I saw once when Harrison Ford was killed in picutre. Not much later a saw another picutre that Harrison Ford was alive again. That's what I call miracle! The producers must be gods themselves, being able to bring back people from the deaths...
I'm not impressed by gods little stunt. I know how Holywood does it.
1 edit
Originally posted by scottishinnzJesus isn't thought to have been omniscient (at least in his earthly form) so your whole argument is bunk.
Soldiers aren't omniscient. Often they are convinced by talented recruiting officers to sign up - with promises of foreign travel, or having their college fees paid. If the incentive is good enough [b]relative to the perceived cost, people will take the risk. Jesus knew exactly the cost of his not running away. He knew categorically that he would be killed, and did nothing to prevent it.[/b]
Originally posted by twhiteheadYes, it's the connotations of 'suicidal' that get people het up. Even a willing sacrifice must be considered suicidal, strictly speaking, I dare say. It's no argument against the validity or otherwise of Jesus' teachings.
I think it is very important to note that someone was willing to die for their beliefs. I think that some Christians think it is an insult to say that Jesus was suicidal, but I think that is because the misunderstand the various meanings of the word. I suspect that some non-Christians are playing on the words usage too in order to portray a 'suicidal acti ...[text shortened]... to die then it is not normally called suicide - even though the action is called suicidal.
Incidentally, is a prisoner who is condemned to death and resigned to being executed also suicidal? One who doesn't struggle until their last breath, I mean. Because Jesus was condemned to death, after all.