27 May 08
Originally posted by josephwWhy?
It's the resurrection of Jesus that changes everything isn't it?
Because it is a miracle - thus proof that he was capable of magic?
Because it shows his suicide was not in fact a symptom of mental illness?
Because it shows that he was not infact sacrificing anything?
Because it proves that he 'conquered' death. The death that most Christians simulatenously fear and don't believe in? The death that Jesus claimed did not exist and therefore could not 'conquer'?
Really, how does it change his teachings on morality?
27 May 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneIf all you're interested in is an atheists view of Jesus' moral teachings, unconstrained by the later interpretation of the events of his supposed existence...then all I can say is I'd place him somewhere above L. Ron Hubbard and Moses, but probably lower on the list than Confucius or Aesop.
Can you provide words of Jesus that support your objection "to earning my eternal vicarious redemption through the gruesome and injust death of another person"?
If you want to use the Gospel of Thomas that's fine with me.
27 May 08
Originally posted by josephwThats ridiculous. Availability of last minute change of mind has nothing to do with the definition of suicide.
If I jump off a ten story building it is suicide because after I jump it's too late. Jesus could have stopped the whole show moments before his death. But he chose not to out of obedience to his father.
I suspect that one common usage of the term suicide is 'killing oneself with the primary purpose of terminating your life.' I don't think Jesus' death fits that description.
I remember a discussion about whether or not the people who jumped off the towers to avoid the flames on 9/11 were committing suicide.
However, if we broaden the definition to all intentional cases of killing oneself or even more broadly all cases of intentionally entering a situation in which death is a certain outcome then Jesus does fit it. Jesus knowingly entered a situation in which he knew he would die and further, according to Christians, his death was a goal of the action ie his death was not simply an unavoidable by product.
The word suicide can also be used in this fashion: 'it would be suicide to drink a bottle of whiskey then drive a racing car'.
It would be perfectly correct English to say:
"It was suicide for Jesus to enter Jerusalem knowing that he had enemies amongst the pharisees."
27 May 08
Originally posted by josephwIs this verse supposed to somehow refute what I posted? Notice that he doesn't state or even imply that all one need do is profess belief that Jesus died for everyone's sins. What do you think he meant?
Joh 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Here's a clue:
John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
27 May 08
Originally posted by David CLike I said earlier. There's an important distinction that needs to be made between the teaching of Jesus and what "Christianity" teaches.
If all you're interested in is an atheists view of Jesus' moral teachings, unconstrained by the later interpretation of the events of his supposed existence...then all I can say is I'd place him somewhere above L. Ron Hubbard and Moses, but probably lower on the list than Confucius or Aesop.
27 May 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneThat's a threat! That's black mail!
John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; [b]but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."[/b]
That's not words from a loving god. That's words from an evil god.
27 May 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneActually, I'm not here to win a discussion, to produce nifty one-liners. I want to know how christians see on these issues. (I do, I really do!)
Good one.
Like: I cannot ever understand how christians can se a god loving and caring, and at the same time fear him and read in the book how evil he is! Like this verse you quoted. Never that I'm able to lower myself to believe in such a nasty god. It is a paradox for me.
And a lot of other things. Like the christians doesn't agree to eachother, and think only they themselves go to heaven and all other christian believers, that differs only in small details, go to hell. And at the same time think this is right! Oh, my, I just can't understand it.
27 May 08
Originally posted by FabianFnasWell, that's a different thread. This thread is about the teachings of Jesus which is quite different from much of 'Christianity'.
Actually, I'm not here to win a discussion, to produce nifty one-liners. I want to know how christians see on these issues. (I do, I really do!)
Like: I cannot ever understand how christians can se a god loving and caring, and at the same time fear him and read in the book how evil he is! Like this verse you quoted. Never that I'm able to lower myself ...[text shortened]... s, go to hell. And at the same time think this is right! Oh, my, I just can't understand it.
27 May 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneExposing contradictions in someone's position is not slinging mud. Twice I have experienced you as running away from any debate concerning what Jesus said about the Holy Spirit , so that's substantial evidence for what I have said. I have also noticed how you quote Jesus's words with repetitive ferocity when it supports your position without any doubts expressed as to their veracity. So why doubt his words on other things?
Like usual all you do is sling mud hoping that something will stick. Seems like the only thing that you can do is hope to keep the person busy with distortions and false accusations. If you can manage to present something substantial, I'll be glad to address it.
BTW- Accusing me of mud slinging is an easy way out that prevents you from facing the point I am making (once again highly convenient). You seem to consistently choose the path of least resistance whilst hiding yourself from the truth that you have been caught with your pants down.