Average Sin Frequency

Originally posted by Conrau K
Are we talking about those monasteries which solely engage in prayer? Or does you include those monasteries which also work, farm, produce crafts or run retreats?

Let me be clear: I don't think that I (or most of the people I know) are all that much 'better'
than those in monasteries 'which solely engage in prayer' (i.e., hermetic). The change that I
effect versus the change I believe I could effect is pretty vast. I just think theirs is even more
vast, because they effect no outward change (keep in mind my hermeneutic).

If the former, then there would be very few. I would guess less than a thousand men and women, from the Camaldolese and Carthusian monasteries.

I'm not interested in quibbling about numbers, but it's not just these monasteries. I know that
some (if not all) Poor Clare convents (Franciscan) are fully cloistered, as well as some of the
Carmelite Order as well. They observe silence, prayer and asceticism. I'm not arguing that
such monasteries reflect even a substantial majority of monastic life, mind you.


But even then, I disagree that their lives are selfish. Even though their lives are hermetic, they live in a community to help each other in their prayer lives, to celebrate Mass together and to teach one another. They are helping each other. It is a very self-abdicating act.

Again, I'm not claiming to be substantially better, but to remove one's self from the world to
live with a handful of other people is, as far as I can tell, selfish. That doesn't mean it doesn't
involve sacrifice, but as far as I'm concerned, the sacrifices do not result in someone else's gain,
but, instead, the sacrifice of one kind of selfishness (my and most people's) for another kind
(one more radical and less involved in the world).

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]Are we talking about those monasteries which solely engage in prayer? Or does you include those monasteries which also work, farm, produce crafts or run retreats?

Let me be clear: I don't think that I (or most of the people I know) are all that much 'better'
than those in monasteries 'which solely engage in p ) for another kind
(one more radical and less involved in the world).

Nemesio[/b]

Let me be clear: I don't think that I (or most of the people I know) are all that much 'better'
than those in monasteries 'which solely engage in prayer' (i.e., hermetic). The change that I
effect versus the change I believe I could effect is pretty vast. I just think theirs is even more
vast, because they effect no outward change (keep in mind my hermeneutic).

Still not clear. Do you think that all monastic life is selfish or only those which do no work whatsoever? I do not think either selfish but if I were to choose, I would think that monastic orders which work and give their profits to charities are more sefless. As I understand, only the Carthusians and Camaldolese do no work whatsoever for the poor. Other enclosed orders, such as second-order Carmelite nuns, do have some apostolic work (like making perfume, cards, candels, etc. of which profits can be given to the poor). Or are you saying that such people too are being selfish?

Personally, I do not see even the most ascetic, prayer-oriented monastic life as selfish. It seems weird to call such a life selfish. I also think that such monks and nuns have a unique spiritual life which can be of benefit to others outside their enclosure. For example, the Cistercian spiritualist Thomas Merton whose works are very popular. Plenty of Church Fathers were also hermits (St.Jerome in particular) as well the mystics St. John of the Cross, St. Teresa of Avila, St. Therese Liseaux. They may not have improved life materially through charitable works but they did give an important intellectual contribution to Christianity.

Originally posted by Nemesio
I think it's entirely selfish, but that's because my hermeneutic disbelieves in the power of
intercessory prayer and the accompanying explanations how two-year olds who get cancer are
part of God's Great Plan.

Asceticism by its very nature is removing one's self from the world and consequently subtracting
one's self from the possible solution to that ...[text shortened]... s for roughly the same thing,
I think He both did and would agree with me.

Nemesio

Jesus didn't say to pray that
someone gets food, drink or clothing; He said 'Give it to them.'

Really? I recall Jesus explicitly instructing his disciples to pray for such things as bread (also repeated in the Our Father).

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]Charity is a selfless act but staying in a monastery (long term) for your own personal well-being is in fact selfish. Again I am not commenting on whether or not it is a sin but it certainly is not selfless as it does not constitute helping another person.

Are we talking about those monasteries which solely engage in prayer? Or does you include th ...[text shortened]... ogether and to teach one another. They are helping each other. It is a very self-abdicating act.[/b]

Im not too sure that you can call the activities within a closed community selfless.
Helping each other in a reciprocating relationship can be considered neutral .... neither selfless nor selfish.

If Christ is to be interpreted correctly then selflessness is the act of giving to others less fortunate than ourselves, and who are not able to return the favour.

Maybe spending the day in prayer so that others can benefit can be considered a selfless act. But I am not convinced that that is what Christ meant when he said to 'love thy neighbour as thyself'.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Other enclosed orders, such as second-order Carmelite nuns, do have some apostolic work (like making perfume, cards, candels, etc. of which profits can be given to the poor). Or are you saying that such people too are being selfish?

Actually, the making of those perfume, cards, and candles, &c goes to the 'charity' of keeping
the Order alive. That is, those products typically raise money for the expenses of the convent
in question or, similarly, to raise awareness about vocations for said convents/monasteries.

Just like I don't think it's altruistic for a businessman to sell perfume and use part of those sales
to hire new employees, pay his electrical bill, or buy new materials, I certainly don't think it's
'selfless' for a nun to sell a candle to pay for her habit, repairs to the pews in her chapel or
to encourage more women to join her order.

Personally, I do not see even the most ascetic, prayer-oriented monastic life as selfish. It seems weird to call such a life selfish. ... They may not have improved life materially through charitable works but they did give an important intellectual contribution to Christianity.

You're, of course, entitled to your opinion. If you don't see how the election to live a certain
life perpetuates that certain lifestyle isn't selfish, I can't help that. However, Jesus didn't
preach that people ought to life lifestyles that perpetuate themselves. He taught 'feed, slake,
clothe, comfort, visit.' When so-called Christians who have the capacity to do otherwise fail
to do so, then I don't think they are following Jesus' teachings.

When hale men and women bury themselves in a room/building and merely pray that these
things take place, I think they are failing in what I consider to be the principal duty of a
Christian. Further, I think that such people are indeed being selfish (again, stemming from my
disbelief in intercessory prayer); by shutting the world out and not contributing in the specific
fashion commanded by Jesus (but instead praying that somehow God will make those things
come true), that is the height of selfish. St Teresa of Avila said that Christ has no body on
earth, but yours (Christians), 'no hands but yours, no feet but yours,' that Christians possess
the eyes through which Christ's compassion must be expressed to the world.

When those eyes are cloistered, separated from the world, it is as if they didn't exist to the
world, which I take to be selfishness at the highest degree.

Nemesio

Originally posted by Conrau K
Really? I recall Jesus explicitly instructing his disciples to pray for such things as bread (also repeated in the Our Father).

Yes. I take the Pater Noster to be Jesus' Psalm, as it were. A casual flip through the
a number of Psalms reveal the sort of pattern:

1) God, you're great;
2) We recognize your greatness;
3) Your power is greater than any other power;
4) Give us something;
5) Keep us safe from something else.

I'm not as 'wowed' by the prayer as other people seem to be (though I certainly recognize and
defer to its historical significance).

Jesus, however, did not teach that people ought to pray for something before they get it.
Indeed, He taught to love your enemies -- the people who curse you, the people who would
rather die than receive something from you, the people who wouldn't give you the scraps from
their table if you and your children were dying of starvation in front of their faces. Jesus did
not preach a reactive theological framework -- pray for something, wait for it to happen, then
react -- but a proactive one -- begin bringing about the kingdom of heaven here on earth by
sharing your bounty with those who lack it.

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
Answering this question seriously requires a clarification. I take the idea of
sinlessness to mean a person whose behavior is perfect -- that given all
situations, they will make choices which reflect the best possible moral choice
available to that person. Such behavior requires, essentially, perfect concentration,
comprehension, and contemplation to ...[text shortened]... it short of
giving all my possessions away and working in the Peace Corps.

Nemesio

Holy crap. Only you could answer a simple math equation with a novel. Just add up your transgressions and throw out a number for Christ's sake.

Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
Holy crap. Only you could answer a simple math equation with a novel. Just add up your transgressions and throw out a number for Christ's sake.

I just put him down for six.

Here are the standings:

Hand of Hecate: 1 (omission: parent honoring)

Nemesio: 6 (omission: feeding, clothing and otherwise tending to the needs of those outside of his community; commission: spousal deceit, worldly opulence, slothful moral deliberation)

epiphinehas: 146 (undisclosed)

josephw: 490 (undisclosed)


Although we have only a small data set, a striking correlation between a righteous attitude and sinful disposition is becoming apparent. As an initial hypothesis, I wonder if a righteous attitude is simply an outward behavioral posture subconsciously manifest to disguise ones more shameful true self. So far in our study, the righteous are too ashamed even to list their individual sins, while the humble have not shied away from enumerating their faults in earnest introspective detail.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
Here are the standings:

Hand of Hecate: 1 (omission: parent honoring)

Nemesio: 6 (omission: feeding, clothing and otherwise tending to the needs of those outside of his community; commission: spousal deceit, worldly opulence, slothful moral deliberation)

epiphinehas: 146 (undisclosed)

josephw: 490 (undisclosed)


Although we have ...[text shortened]... le the humble have not shied away from enumerating their faults in earnest introspective detail.

Excellent! I think I won something.😵

Originally posted by Nemesio
Yes. I take the Pater Noster to be Jesus' Psalm, as it were. A casual flip through the
a number of Psalms reveal the sort of pattern:

1) God, you're great;
2) We recognize your greatness;
3) Your power is greater than any other power;
4) Give us something;
5) Keep us safe from something else.

I'm not as 'wowed' by the prayer as other pe ...[text shortened]... kingdom of heaven here on earth by
sharing your bounty with those who lack it.

Nemesio

I'm not as 'wowed' by the prayer as other people seem to be (though I certainly recognize and
defer to its historical significance).

Is that the basis of your hermeneutic? The 'wow' factor?

The Pater Noster is not the sole instance in which Jesus commends intercessory prayer to his disciples. Immediately after giving the Pater Noster, he tells "So I say to you, Ask and it will be given you; search and you will find; knock and the door will be opened for you. For everyone who asks shall receive" (Luke 11:9-10). The words are repeated in Matthew (7:7-9). The following verses add "If you then who are evil know how to give good gifts to your children how much more will your Father in heaven give good things to those who ask Him". There is also the parable of the widow and the unjust judge. Jesus seems to very convinced of the power of intercessory prayer.

And anyway, I do not know why you have zeroed in on intercessory prayer. Monasteries are devoted to contemplative prayer. The primary purpose is to contemplate God, through prayer, study and manual labour, and experience His presence. Intercessory prayer is a marginal practice.

Originally posted by DoctorScribbles
So far in our study, the righteous are too ashamed even to list their individual sins, while the humble have not shied away from enumerating their faults in earnest introspective detail.

An alternative explanation is that it is cumbersome to describe 490 sins in detail. Do you often generalise from a pool of only two samples?

Originally posted by Nemesio
Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]Other enclosed orders, such as second-order Carmelite nuns, do have some apostolic work (like making perfume, cards, candels, etc. of which profits can be given to the poor). Or are you saying that such people too are being selfish?

Actually, the making of those perfume, cards, and candles, &c goes to the 'cha ...[text shortened]... he
world, which I take to be selfishness at the highest degree.

Nemesio[/b]

Actually, the making of those perfume, cards, and candles, &c goes to the 'charity' of keeping
the Order alive. That is, those products typically raise money for the expenses of the convent
in question or, similarly, to raise awareness about vocations for said convents/monasteries.

Of course. But the profits go to charities. A monastery of strict-observant Cistercians in my state make hundreds of thousands of dollars each year. In three years they were able to repay a substantial loan for their newly acquired property. They then built a retreat house so that any Catholic can stay there for prayer and silence. I understand that they have also donated to charities outside their apostolate.

When so-called Christians who have the capacity to do otherwise fail
to do so, then I don't think they are following Jesus' teachings.

But I disagree that all Christians have such a capacity. Not everyone is able to live in the modern world and some Christians may find that the only way to maintain their faith is by a hermetic life.

Originally posted by Conrau K
An alternative explanation is that it is cumbersome to describe 490 sins in detail. Do you often generalise from a pool of only two samples?

Why don't you give me another data point. When you go to confession, how many sins do you typically confess? (And how many do you typically hold back?)

Originally posted by Conrau K
Jesus seems to very convinced of the power of intercessory prayer.

Then Jesus must have been unfamiliar with a very simple argument demonstrating that intercessory prayer to an omnibenevolent, omniscient God is necessarily futile.