Originally posted by Nicksten
Nordlys, what is the difference between a discussion forum and critic forum? Hopefully you will know the difference, but, you criticise 99% of the time while you discuss 1% of all the time. Is that because you have a very VERY bad self image and cant have a nice discussion with anybody, or do you like being childish most of the time?

Starrman and lioyank still bring you to a dead end. No one forces you to believe in God, it is your own free will.

We have to go to Him, pay the price (and that is not to do sin anymore), and we will be cleaned, and after He is finished with us, we are new people.

I can only wish this were true. It hasn't been my experience that Christians are any less sinful than the general population. As a matter of fact, many who call themselves Christian appear to use Christianity as a means to empower their sinful nature. The line of thought seems to go something like this: I sin; Jesus has cleansed me from my sins; God loves me anyway; I continue to sin because it's in my nature; God still loves me; I feel good about my relationship with God; I continue to sin; Everyone sins; God loves me; I feel good.

There appears to be a serious scarcity of "cleaned...new people". A serious scarcity of people who actually take God as their lord. Why is this?

Originally posted by Nicksten
Nordlys, what is the difference between a discussion forum and critic forum? Hopefully you will know the difference, but, you criticise 99% of the time while you discuss 1% of all the time. Is that because you have a very VERY bad self image and cant have a nice discussion with anybody, or do you like being childish most of the time?

So people who agree with you are "discussing", while people who disagree with you are "criticizing." Is that how it works?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]We have to go to Him, pay the price (and that is not to do sin anymore), and we will be cleaned, and after He is finished with us, we are new people.

I can only wish this were true. It hasn't been my experience that Christians are any less sinful than the general population. As a matter of fact, many who call themselves Christian appear to use C ...[text shortened]... .new people". A serious scarcity of people who actually take God as their lord. Why is this?[/b]

It's not about sin primarily but about love. The Lord will ask not "why did you swear or look at all those sins" he will say "how much have you loved" . I know Christians who have really messed up in more than one area of their lives but they have been there for me in my hour of need. That counts for a lot in my eyes.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]We have to go to Him, pay the price (and that is not to do sin anymore), and we will be cleaned, and after He is finished with us, we are new people.

I can only wish this were true. It hasn't been my experience that Christians are any less sinful than the general population. As a matter of fact, many who call themselves Christian appear to use C ...[text shortened]... .new people". A serious scarcity of people who actually take God as their lord. Why is this?[/b]

""The line of thought seems to go something like this: I sin; Jesus has cleansed me from my sins; God loves me anyway; I continue to sin because it's in my nature; God still loves me; I feel good about my relationship with God; I continue to sin; Everyone sins; God loves me; I feel good.""


It's naive to think that sin can be overcome easily but that doesn't mean that we don't try. In any case , Christians are resigned to the concept of having to go back to God again and again for forgiveness. That's why we need a God who loves unconditionally NOT conditionally . The key is the building of a relationship with God. Sin translated literally just means separation so God is trying to bring us closer to him. The Bible clearly states that it is impossible to overcome sin by our own willpower alone , we need help. So it is right and proper that Christians feel secure and good about their relationship with God. He has said that he will stick by us through thick and thin , warts and all. He's not about to walk off the moment we foul up , what kind of god would that be??

"The bruised reed he will not crush , the smouldering wick he will not put out " Isiah OT

Originally posted by knightmeister
""The line of thought seems to go something like this: I sin; Jesus has cleansed me from my sins; God loves me anyway; I continue to sin because it's in my nature; God still loves me; I feel good about my relationship with God; I continue to sin; Everyone sins; God loves me; I feel good.""


It's naive to think that sin can be overcome easily but t ...[text shortened]... bruised reed he will not crush , the smouldering wick he will not put out " Isiah OT

Sin can be overcome once one has humbled oneself enough to commit to one's love of God more than one's self.

Forgiveness is granted upon repentance.

If a man keeps cheating on his wife, what kind of relationship does he have with her? Does he love her or does he love the idea that she loves him? If he truly loves her, why does he continue to hurt her and the relationship between them? Why do his desires mean more to him than the relationship?

Originally posted by knightmeister
I agree on one level .But what if the only way there was to create beings like us with free will and the ability to love as sentient entities was to allow this state of affairs?

An omnipotent God could have both free will and no evil. And my argument for this is the one you constantly use, "magic, see?"

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Sin can be overcome once one has humbled oneself enough to commit to one's love of God more than one's self.

Forgiveness is granted upon repentance.

If a man keeps cheating on his wife, what kind of relationship does he have with her? Does he love her or does he love the idea that she loves him? If he truly loves her, why does he continue to hurt ...[text shortened]... and the relationship between them? Why do his desires mean more to him than the relationship?

Well said and examined.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Sin can be overcome once one has humbled oneself enough to commit to one's love of God more than one's self.

Forgiveness is granted upon repentance.

If a man keeps cheating on his wife, what kind of relationship does he have with her? Does he love her or does he love the idea that she loves him? If he truly loves her, why does he continue to hurt ...[text shortened]... and the relationship between them? Why do his desires mean more to him than the relationship?

"Forgiveness is granted upon repentance."

So you do think God is personal then! Only a personal God can forgive.

By implication you think that he is very interested in things like repentance , you also allude to us having some kind of relationship with God , be careful you are starting to sound like a Christian!

Originally posted by scottishinnz
An omnipotent God could have both free will and no evil. And my argument for this is the one you constantly use, "magic, see?"

But can you explain how God can create real free will but exclude any possibility of anything happening that he might not like? It's logically impossible.

At least I had an explanation.

I also think that there are certain things that seem paradoxical about God because of our limited understanding of his dimension of eternity, but ultimately , as I explained in the sphere and circle story , they are not paradoxical. However , God creating freedom without creating freedom IS paradoxical and dimensional differences make no difference. Can God choose to never exist? Or become non-God? Can he create a rock so big he can't lift it? Questions like these are issues of pure contradictory logic whereas the issue of omniscience on the other thread is a matter of dimensions.

Neither one is "magic" or "non magic" , one is a dimension issue and one is a logic issue. You have grouped them together artificially in the hope of tripping me up. The problem is you are so concerned with trying to trip me up that you forget to think the thing through.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Sin can be overcome once one has humbled oneself enough to commit to one's love of God more than one's self.

Forgiveness is granted upon repentance.

If a man keeps cheating on his wife, what kind of relationship does he have with her? Does he love her or does he love the idea that she loves him? If he truly loves her, why does he continue to hurt ...[text shortened]... and the relationship between them? Why do his desires mean more to him than the relationship?

"If a man keeps cheating on his wife, what kind of relationship does he have with her? Does he love her or does he love the idea that she loves him? If he truly loves her, why does he continue to hurt her and the relationship between them? Why do his desires mean more to him than the relationship?"

Sin is NOT analogous to cheating on your wife. Cheating on your wife would be more the equivalent of renouncing your relationship with God and going in completely the opoosite direction.

The analogy you are looking for is when a man loves his wife but because he is imperfect they sometimes argue or he is tired and takes things out on her or he is just clumsy and doesn't notice how she is feeling or doesn't listen properly. He buys her chocolates and goes to her with his tail between his legs and apologises. The wife forgives him and kisses him gently because she knows the man that he really is and knows that he isn't perfect and sees that he tries his best a lot of the time and she knows he loves her despite making a pig's ear of it sometimes. Infact her love for him is such that she has forgiven him before he even says sorry. There are millions of relationships like this that are loving and sustained over many years often until death , but sometimes the relationship goes through rocky periods.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Sin can be overcome once one has humbled oneself enough to commit to one's love of God more than one's self.

Forgiveness is granted upon repentance.

If a man keeps cheating on his wife, what kind of relationship does he have with her? Does he love her or does he love the idea that she loves him? If he truly loves her, why does he continue to hurt ...[text shortened]... and the relationship between them? Why do his desires mean more to him than the relationship?

Forgiveness is granted upon repentance. THINKOFONE

NO NO NO NO NO...A MILLION TIMES NO!

Repentance allows us to RECEIVE his forgiveness , but he has forgiven us already.

God has forgiven us period . It's a one time deal. His love for us is such that at this point in time he will never love you anymore than he does right now . His love is not dependent on what you do. His love is utterly unconditional. There is nothing you can do to make him love you any more than he does in this present moment. He loves you because you are precious to him and you are incredibly beautiful to him , even though you might do ugly things sometimes.

You DO NOT have to change to "earn" his love and forgiveness , it is the other way round. His love and forgiveness help you to change. He accepts you as you are , not as you should be. Just like Jesus accepted the apostles (what a rag taggle bunch they were).

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Sin can be overcome once one has humbled oneself enough to commit to one's love of God more than one's self.

Forgiveness is granted upon repentance.

If a man keeps cheating on his wife, what kind of relationship does he have with her? Does he love her or does he love the idea that she loves him? If he truly loves her, why does he continue to hurt ...[text shortened]... and the relationship between them? Why do his desires mean more to him than the relationship?

"Sin can be overcome once one has humbled oneself enough to commit to one's love of God more than one's self."


That may be the way it is for you but for the rest of us mortals the journey is a much more rocky one with twists and turns and cul-de-sacs along the way. Sin can only be fully overcome when we die because until then we are still living separate from the full glory of God in an imperfect world. Why do you think God gave us Jesus ? So we have the provision of confession and repentance to go back to again and again. Just like when Peter thought he would never betray Jesus , but Jesus knew he would .

The worst sin (of pride) is thinking that we can overcome sin by our own efforts because if this is true who needs Jesus? Who needs redemption? Who needs God?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Forgiveness is granted upon repentance. THINKOFONE

NO NO NO NO NO...A MILLION TIMES NO!

Repentance allows us to RECEIVE his forgiveness , but he has forgiven us already.

God has forgiven us period . It's a one time deal. His love for us is such that at this point in time he will never love you anymore than he does right now . His love is no as you should be. Just like Jesus accepted the apostles (what a rag taggle bunch they were).

well, thats great!

so he won't mind that I'm not a "true" Christian and I still will live for eternity in bliss!

Sounds good.

-edit-

uhmm How do you know this for sure??

Originally posted by knightmeister
"If a man keeps cheating on his wife, what kind of relationship does he have with her? Does he love her or does he love the idea that she loves him? If he truly loves her, why does he continue to hurt her and the relationship between them? Why do his desires mean more to him than the relationship?"

Sin is NOT analogous to cheating on your wife. Chea ...[text shortened]... any years often until death , but sometimes the relationship goes through rocky periods.

Sorry, the analogy is spot on. If I meant "leaves his wife", I would have said so. If this make it more difficult for you to rationalize away your behavior, then that's a good thing.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Forgiveness is granted upon repentance. THINKOFONE

NO NO NO NO NO...A MILLION TIMES NO!

Repentance allows us to RECEIVE his forgiveness , but he has forgiven us already.

God has forgiven us period . It's a one time deal. His love for us is such that at this point in time he will never love you anymore than he does right now . His love is no ...[text shortened]... as you should be. Just like Jesus accepted the apostles (what a rag taggle bunch they were).

How do you rationalize away the following?

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way.

Luke 6:46-49
Why do you call me,'Lord, Lord,' and don't do the things which I say?

Everyone who comes to me, and hears my words, and does them, I will show you who he is like.

He is like a man building a house, who dug and went deep, and laid a foundation on the rock. When a flood arose, the stream broke against that house, and could not shake it, because it was founded on the rock.

But he who hears, and doesn't do, is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream broke, and immediately it fell, and the ruin of that house was great.

Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?'

Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'