21 Dec 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterSo we have the provision of confession and repentance to go back to again and again.
"Sin can be overcome once one has humbled oneself enough to commit to one's love of God more than one's self."
That may be the way it is for you but for the rest of us mortals the journey is a much more rocky one with twists and turns and cul-de-sacs along the way. Sin can only be fully overcome when we die because until then we are still living ...[text shortened]... ur own efforts because if this is true who needs Jesus? Who needs redemption? Who needs God?
Perhaps you don't understand what's required in the act of repentance: to feel regret about a sin or past actions and change your ways or habits
If you've truly repented, there's no need to "go back again and again".
Immortality isn't required, merely humility.
21 Dec 06
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI don't need to rationalise them away because all these statements are within the context of God's love and forgiveness. You have misunderstood what I am saying. Nowhere have I suggested that we shouldn't repent , all I have suggested is that we have to be realistic. Dramatic change isn't going to happen over night , we are going to stumble and fall. That's why God put stories like Peter betraying Jesus in there (also doubting Thomas) because he knows that we are not all going to ride off into the sunset with the music playing once we have repented.
How do you rationalize away the following?
Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way.
Luke 6:46-49
Why do you call me,'Lord, Lord,' and don't do the things which I say?
Everyone who comes to me, and hears my words, and does them, I will show you who he is like.
He is like a man building a house, who ...[text shortened]... '
Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'
21 Dec 06
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI know what repentance is but Peter had "truely repented" as far as I know and he made a direct promise to Jesus to his face and then broke it. He had to come back again ,and he was the "rock" on which Jesus built his church.
[b]So we have the provision of confession and repentance to go back to again and again.
Perhaps you don't understand what's required in the act of repentance: to feel regret about a sin or past actions and change your ways or habits
If you've truly repented, there's no need to "go back again and again".
Immortality isn't required, merely humility.[/b]
I think you are polarising this into a case of either /or. You think that either one repents and that's it ....off into the sunset into perfection...walt disney melodies in the background OR if that doesn't happen then someone is not taking God seriously or is not progressing.
You have forgotten the messy bits in between where real people live , making mistakes even when they try hard (often because they try too hard). People progress and learn to love God and learn to shake off pride but they still sin and mess up as well . It's not an either/or all or nothing thing.It's like when children learn to walk there is a point where they learn but they still spend a lot of time falling over. My 5 year old is still doing it!
Tell me , do you think you are as humble as you can possibly be right now , or do you think you still have something to learn about loving God? Do you ever make mistakes , or fall short of what you think God might have you do? Do you have any pride left or are you on the edge of disappearing into another plane of perfect existence? Do you see any possibility that in the future you might need to go back to God and confess or repent?
If you don't can you please bottle whatever it is you are taking , I will sell it on ebay for a few million!
I would hazard a vague guess that you are human like the rest of us and have on on going struggle with pride and imperfection and that's Ok , God knows the stuff you are made of. Thank goodness he's not as perfectionist as you . His standards may be high but he knows that we are not going to reach them all the time , but we still jump!
22 Dec 06
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneChristians arent angels 🙂 and yes, Christians are not any less sinful that the general population, and that is why we have to keep going back to God for forgiveness.
[b]We have to go to Him, pay the price (and that is not to do sin anymore), and we will be cleaned, and after He is finished with us, we are new people.
I can only wish this were true. It hasn't been my experience that Christians are any less sinful than the general population. As a matter of fact, many who call themselves Christian appear to use C ...[text shortened]... .new people". A serious scarcity of people who actually take God as their lord. Why is this?[/b]
22 Dec 06
Originally posted by rwingettNo man, think for yourself. It should not work like that. If someone does not agree with me, he can do so without criticizing. Why criticize when you dont agree - a little childish wouldn't you say?
So people who agree with you are "discussing", while people who disagree with you are "criticizing." Is that how it works?
22 Dec 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterI agree knightmeister, I could not have put it better, thanks.
""The line of thought seems to go something like this: I sin; Jesus has cleansed me from my sins; God loves me anyway; I continue to sin because it's in my nature; God still loves me; I feel good about my relationship with God; I continue to sin; Everyone sins; God loves me; I feel good.""
It's naive to think that sin can be overcome easily but t ...[text shortened]... bruised reed he will not crush , the smouldering wick he will not put out " Isiah OT
22 Dec 06
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneThere are plenty of ways that a man can mess up in his relationship without cheating on her. In any case cheating on your wife often leads to the relationship breaking up and the man/woman leaving.
Sorry, the analogy is spot on. If I meant "leaves his wife", I would have said so. If this make it more difficult for you to rationalize away your behavior, then that's a good thing.
I think you are confusing catagories here. There is no need to compare sin to cheating on you wife , since cheating on your wife is a very serious matter that can not be overcome in a relationship easily.But then God is a bit more forgiving than your average wife. If a man walked away from his faith and renounced God that would be serious and cheating on your wife would be a more appropriate analogy because it implies a direct betrayal. Sin is different , sin is when we fall down and make a mistake , or fail due to our limitations or our pride , cheating on your wife rarely happens by accident.
In any case if a man went to his wife and said , "that's it ..I've married you now and I'm never going to be stubborn or get impatient with you and we will never row and I will never hurt your feelings....." I think he would have to pick her up off the floor after her laughing fit.
22 Dec 06
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Let me see if I understand this correctly. Jesus comes to this world to establish a new covenant with man. He comes to tell man that ACTING piously out of fear isn't what is required. What is required is that one's love of God needs to be strong enough to change one's heart such that one humbly follows the ways of God instead of following the desires of the self. Jesus willingly dies on the cross to help establish this new covenant. After all this, the love of God, by Christians as a whole, is so strong that they are no better at following the ways of God than the general population. This is just too sad for words.
22 Dec 06
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI have not said that Christians are no better at following the ways of God than the general population but neither have I said that they always follow the ways of God perfectly. Once again you turn the thing into an all or nothing situation with extreme positions at either end and no grey in between , which is interesting. Christians are human beings just like anyone else and need the provision of being picked up after failing to do what's right . Christians are stumbling along trying to follow God. The rag taggle bunch of disciples in the NT were human beings too but they were following Jesus as best they could. This did make them different though.
Let me see if I understand this correctly. Jesus comes to this world to establish a new covenant with man. He comes to tell man that ACTING piously out of fear isn't what is required. What is required is that one's love of God needs to be strong enough to change one's heart such that one humbly follows the ways of God instead of following the desires of t ...[text shortened]... ter at following the ways of God than the general population. This is just too sad for words.
"What is required is that one's love of God needs to be strong enough to change one's heart such that one humbly follows the ways of God instead of following the desires of the self." Tof ONE
Often our love is not strong enough , that's where God comes in.
Christian teaching clearly states that it is God that changes heart's not just our own willpower. It's a combined effort . People also need to learn how to love. They come to God needing healing from fear , hurt , dissappointment , etc. A key part of Christianity is on-going confession to God in repentance. It's a three steps forward , two steps back , one forward , two back again then another forward again kind of deal. (At least if you are mortal that is)
"Jesus willingly dies on the cross to help establish this new covenant." ---What does this mean to you? What is this new covenant?Since you do not accept that God is making a specific covenant with the world through Jesus ( and not thro' mohammed , buddha , or abraham) then how can you comment on this? You do not even understand what the covenant is!!!!
How do you define the "ways of God"? Since you do not subscribe to the Christian faith or accept it's central beliefs who are you to start pontificating about Christianity when you don't even believe Christ was the Son of God? I doubt whether you believe he was ressurected( a core Christian belief) .
You hint that God might be personal but won't describe his personality.
You quote Jesus but don't think you need to follow him (instead of "truth" as YOU define it)
You discuss confession and repentance and sin as if you understand Christianity but then deny key components of it.
You also continue to leave any pertinent and challenging questions I ask you unanswered (I'm getting used to it though).
You sound as if you judge Christians by your very high standards. If you are lucky enough to be able to click your fingers and love God just like that then thank God that you are so gifted but do not judge others by your yardstick . Only God can judge because only God knows our hearts and struggles . You however cannot know. The man next to you on the bus who is a Christian and to you is not following the "ways of God" (as you define them) , may actually be doing pretty well given the cards in life he has been dealt.
"Judge and you will not be judged"
"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone"
"Who is righteous?...where is the righteous man...all have fallen short of the glory of God"
22 Dec 06
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Originally posted by knightmeisterOnce again you turn the thing into an all or nothing situation with extreme positions at either end and no grey in between , which is interesting.
I have not said that Christians are no better at following the ways of God than the general population but neither have I said that they always follow the ways of God perfectly. Once again you turn the thing into an all or nothing situation with extreme positions at either end and no grey in between , which is interesting. Christians are human beings e is the righteous man...all have fallen short of the glory of God"
What's even more interesting is how you alternately accuse me of seeing everything as back and white and also of seeing everything as "fuzzy" (which I take to be grey). Of course, both of these accusations are nothing more than red herrings anyway.
Like I told you before, I'm interested in discussing and understanding. However, you seem bent on debating and scoring "points". What you see as "pertinent and challenging questions" are often made on conclusions that you have drawn about my position that have no basis in fact. This makes it very difficult to respond, so I choose to ignore them. It's not like I'm the first person to point this out to you. At least one other poster has said as much in your "Dr. Who" threads. If you can put your pride aside for a while, maybe you'll come to the realization that this is true.
When I read the following passage from Luke, I see Jesus as saying that one has the choice between following his words or not. I see Jesus as saying that it's entirely up to the individual as to how deep to dig before setting the foundation. That it's entirely within one's power to do so. Perhaps one has to dig deep in order to avoid this "step forward and back" dance that you describe. Perhaps you've never set a proper foundation. Perhaps you need to set your pride aside and decide that it's important for you to dig a proper foundation. Your posts often betray both a lack of clarity and depth on your part.
Luke 6:46-49
Why do you call me,'Lord, Lord,' and don't do the things which I say?
Everyone who comes to me, and hears my words, and does them, I will show you who he is like.
He is like a man building a house, who dug and went deep, and laid a foundation on the rock. When a flood arose, the stream broke against that house, and could not shake it, because it was founded on the rock.
But he who hears, and doesn't do, is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream broke, and immediately it fell, and the ruin of that house was great.
23 Dec 06
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne"Like I told you before, I'm interested in discussing and understanding. However, you seem bent on debating and scoring "points". What you see as "pertinent and challenging questions" are often made on conclusions that you have drawn about my position that have no basis in fact. This makes it very difficult to respond, so I choose to ignore them." THINKOFONE
[b]Once again you turn the thing into an all or nothing situation with extreme positions at either end and no grey in between , which is interesting.
What's even more interesting is how you alternately accuse me of seeing everything as back and white and also of seeing everything as "fuzzy" (which I take to be grey). Of course, both of these accusa ...[text shortened]... am broke, and immediately it fell, and the ruin of that house was great.[/b]
If you are such an expert on the content of my posts then you would also know that I ask a lot of rhetorical and hypothetical questions designed to get the other person thinking. The questions are often extreme and semi-sarcastic because I like to take arguments to there ultimate logical conclusion because it's often only then that the truth emerges.
I asked you whether you felt that you were already loving God perfectly or whether you yourself never fell short of God's ways and ever fell back into pride. I asked this in the full knowledge that you couldn't possibly say "yes" but would have to say "no" because a "yes " answer would have been unbelievably arrogant (and would have proved that you actually did have pride left after all).
So I assumed that you couldn't possibly be that perfect or arrogant. I would then have gone on to ask you how you deal with your "lapses" from God's path and how you rationalise them away without turning back to God (again).
The difficulty is that the only way I have of finding out these things is by asking you questions. If you choose not to disclose anything or answer them then all I have left is vague assumptions based on the implications of what you are saying about sin/pride.
The game seems to be to avoid transparency and then criticize assumptions I make in the absence of any information given. My assumptions have no basis in fact because you give me none! This is what you did on the other thread. Rather than choose to correct assumptions you use them as a way out of answering what I still think is a very relevant question about your own personal levels of humility. This is called debating not point scoring. If you want discussion then you are going to have to expect some piercing questions. You say you don't want debate but then you still go right into the hornets nest anyway! If you are a victim of assumptions it's because you have partly made yourself one.
So why choose to ignore the question? If I have made an assumption then it might be because I can't read your mind? Are you offended ? Or did you not like where the question was logically leading you? It's not difficult to respond , you just type on your key board.
You seem incapable fo understanding that Christians can build their lives on a rock (Jesus) but still fall short and need forgiveness along the way. It's called humanity.
23 Dec 06
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Originally posted by knightmeisterTwisting another persons words and misrepresenting another's position in order to "get them thinking" may be prevalent in schoolyards around the world, but perhaps it's time you tried another approach. How about just asking insightful questions without resorting to schoolboy tactics?
"Like I told you before, I'm interested in discussing and understanding. However, you seem bent on debating and scoring "points". What you see as "pertinent and challenging questions" are often made on conclusions that you have drawn about my position that have no basis in fact. This makes it very difficult to respond, so I choose to ignore them." THIN ll fall short and need forgiveness along the way. It's called humanity.
You seem incapable fo understanding that Christians can build their lives on a rock (Jesus) but still fall short and need forgiveness along the way. It's called humanity.
Perhaps you fail to understand that the reason so many Christians continually "fall short" is because they have yet to dig down to the "rock". They focus on what God provides them instead of focusing on how they can better follow the ways of God.
How you fail to see the tragedy of a group of people who cry "Lord, Lord", but don't follow the ways of God better than the general population, is beyond me. It seems pretty clear to me that Jesus expects one to humbly follow the ways of God. That Jesus expects "humanity" to be perfectly capable of doing so.
23 Dec 06
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne"How about just asking insightful questions without resorting to schoolboy tactics?"
Twisting another persons words and misrepresenting another's position in order to "get them thinking" may be prevalent in schoolyards around the world, but perhaps it's time you tried another approach. How about just asking insightful questions without resorting to schoolboy tactics?
[b]You seem incapable fo understanding that Christians can build thei ...[text shortened]... he ways of God. That Jesus expects "humanity" to be perfectly capable of doing so.
What do you do when you feel you have fallen short of God's ways?
Do you see pride as something one can be rid of permanently?
Can someone honestly think they have dug very deep only to find later that they haven't ?
How can anyone know who has dug deep or not , since only God can see that deep into us?
How is a Christian to "grow in spiritual maturity" if they are expected to be perfect in humility before they even start?
Even though Peter had given up everything he had to follow Jesus was he not still a stubborn , impatient ass sometimes?
Did Jesus accept him all the same?
Did Jesus say that he expected humanity to be able to follow God humbly without the help of the Holy Spirit? ("No-one can come to me unless the Father brings them"😉
On what do you base your knowledge of Christians and what they say and do? How do you qualify your " but don't follow the ways of God better than the general population" statement?
23 Dec 06
Originally posted by knightmeisterMaybe we need to begin at the beginning. Try following this particular line of discussion from the start (20 Dec '06 07:51) which was a question addressed to Nicksten who started this thread.
"How about just asking insightful questions without resorting to schoolboy tactics?"
What do you do when you feel you have fallen short of God's ways?
Do you see pride as something one can be rid of permanently?
Can someone honestly think they have dug very deep only to find later that they haven't ?
How can anyone know who has dug de ...[text shortened]... our " but don't follow the ways of God better than the general population" statement?
He replied with the following:
Christians arent angels and yes, Christians are not any less sinful that the general population, and that is why we have to keep going back to God for forgiveness.
You've interjected your thoughts over a number of posts, most of which seem to cover your view of God's love, sin, repentance and forgiveness.
I also added a general post, that was directed at Nicksten as much if not more than you on 22 Dec '06 08:50, but which you seemed to take as directed at you.
Now you have a long list of questions of which many seem to be red herrings or continue to resort to schoolboy tactics. Of course, throwing out red herrings is another such tactic.
If you have something of substance to say or care to have a thoughtful discussion, then please organize your thoughts and present them.