1 edit
-Removed-I believe someone will either be saved or eternally lost. There are many interpretations as to what 'eternally lost' means. I personally think no one knows for sure what that will entail exactly, but I do know it involves a lake of fire and weeping and gnashing of teeth. I don't think an unequivocal position on what that exactly entails is necessary for salvation. So tell me why do you think every Christian should have an unequivocal position on exactly what being 'eternally lost' means? Will those who don't have an unequivocal position on this matter loose their salvation?
1 edit
-Removed-This was my stance. I see nothing in it about God torturing people for eternity.
“There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened.”
“Hell is a state of mind - ye never said a truer word. And every state of mind, left to itself, every shutting up of the creature within the dungeon of its own mind - is, in the end, Hell. But Heaven is not a state of mind. Heaven is reality itself. All that is fully real is Heavenly. For all that can be shaken will be shaken and only the unshakeable remains.”
These quotes are from The Great Divorce, by C.S Lewis.
1 edit
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkI think you are being deliberately dishonest about what I have claimed. What I have claimed is that my faith was completely sincere - "genuine" in that sense.
Anyone who 'looses their faith' did not have genuine faith, so clearly you did not have genuine faith regardless of your claims.
But for you to claim that I - an ex-Christian - a NON-Christian - am looking back at the Christian faith that I once held and that I am saying that I had a genuine relationship with the Christian god figure, demonstrates that you STILL don't seem to have the slightest clue about the reality of a loss of faith.
When I was a Christian, my faith was sincere, it felt genuine, I perceived it (what it entailed, what it promised, and what it meant) as real.
For you, still a Christian, all these years later, when the ex-Christian's faith has gone, to tell him that there was nothing real about that faith, is akin to telling me - once again - that bears poo in the woods.
Of course what I believed to be real was, in fact, not real. But you wittering on, No True Scotsman style, about how it wasn't genuine, it wasn't genuine, does not and cannot alter the fact that I perceived it as real, as true, and as genuine at that time, just as you perceive your faith - and what it pertains to - as being real, true, and genuine at this current time.
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkSo, just to be absolutely clear, you do not believe the person in the scenario I mentioned (with the loss of faith on their deathbed) will be tortured for eternity, is that right?
When did I claim to know that anyone will be tortured for eternity?
Originally posted by FMFYou said before that your faith was genuine. Now you are saying it was in fact not real. So clearly it was not genuine and you have just admitted that. Of course I perceive my faith to be genuine. The fact that you lost your faith which you thought was genuine at the time doesn't mean that I am going to loose my faith either now does it? So you can't have it both ways.
I think you are being deliberately dishonest about what I have claimed. What I have claimed is that my faith was completely sincere - "genuine" in that sense.
But for you to claim that I - an ex-Christian - a NON-Christian - am looking back at the Christian faith that I once held and that I am claiming that I have said I had a genuine relationship with the C ...[text shortened]... ve your faith - and what it pertains to - as being real, true, and genuine at this current time.
1 edit
Originally posted by FMFI don't agree with your version of 'faith loss'. Instead of the word 'genuine' let me rather say 'God given'. I don't think 'God given' faith can be lost. God finishes the work that he starts. So I don't think your faith was 'God given' and I'm sure neither do you, so we are agreed.
So, just to be absolutely clear, you [b]do not believe the person in the scenario I mentioned (with the loss of faith on their deathbed) will be tortured for eternity, is that right?[/b]
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkYes, genuine. By which I meant "sincere". Surely you realize that? You can't seriously still be thinking that a non-Christian, like me, can believe that what Christians believe is "true"?
You said before that your faith was genuine. Now you are saying it was in fact not real.
Now you are saying it was in fact not real.
Well, of course. I am now a non-Christian. What would you expect?
But the fact that I have lost my Christian faith does not mean that when I did have that faith, it was not sincere - indeed, it felt completely genuine and I perceived it to be real and true.
Surely you must be able to cobble together some kind of understanding of what it feels like to be a Christian, and also what it might feel like to be an ex-Christian? Surely you can do that?
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkI haven't suggested that you are going to lose your faith. But you have conceded that you might. You said "time will tell".
The fact that you lost your faith which you thought was genuine at the time doesn't mean that I am going to loose my faith either now does it?