1. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    17 Jun '09 23:24
    I claim not to believe in anything.
    Eversince I started doing this nothing out of the ordinary has happened. The sky did not come crashing down or anything.
    Now I'm starting to realize how much trouble I am avoiding.
    (there is a bit of linguistical nuance here, this is really just a trick😉)
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    17 Jun '09 23:33
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    I claim not to believe in anything.
    Eversince I started doing this nothing out of the ordinary has happened. The sky did not come crashing down or anything.
    Now I'm starting to realize how much trouble I am avoiding.
    (there is a bit of linguistical nuance here, this is really just a trick😉)
    What is the distinction between belief that p, and making a claim that p? Only the public element I suspect, or the possibility of lying.

    I wonder whether your linguistic nuance has in fact ensnared you in a paradox.

    Do you believe that you don't believe anything?

    If 'yes', then you have a contradiction, if 'no', then why make the claim?
  3. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    17 Jun '09 23:53
    Originally posted by Lord Shark
    What is the distinction between belief that p, and making a claim that p? Only the public element I suspect, or the possibility of lying.

    I wonder whether your linguistic nuance has in fact ensnared you in a paradox.

    Do you believe that you don't believe anything?

    If 'yes', then you have a contradiction, if 'no', then why make the claim?
    Yep,i hear you and I knew this would be pionted out.
    I don't mind being ensnared in a paradox or whatever.
    I'm changing through my own choices,language,etc.
    I tell myself I dont believe in anything. I tell others I dont believe in anything and, slowly, it is changing my reality.
    I still get into all sorts of stuff but avoiding the claim of belief in these things seems to bypass a lot of trouble
  4. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    18 Jun '09 03:08
    From the movie 'Dogma'-(chris rock): It is better to have an idea than a belief because if something comes along and contradicts your beliefs it can really rock you,whereas ideas can be changed.
    It is easier to change an idea than a belief, basically
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    18 Jun '09 09:58
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    I claim not to believe in anything.
    Eversince I started doing this nothing out of the ordinary has happened. The sky did not come crashing down or anything.
    Now I'm starting to realize how much trouble I am avoiding.
    (there is a bit of linguistical nuance here, this is really just a trick😉)
    why would anything happen in this life. why did you think it would?
    its the next life that the trouble comes.
  6. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    18 Jun '09 12:19
    Originally posted by stoker
    why would anything happen in this life. why did you think it would?
    its the next life that the trouble comes.
    Religous wars have rocked our history, people fighting in the name of their beliefs. Surely we must do what we can to alleviate suffering.
    Lots of trouble in THIS world because of beliefs
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    18 Jun '09 12:31
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    From the movie 'Dogma'-(chris rock): It is better to have an idea than a belief because if something comes along and contradicts your beliefs it can really rock you,whereas ideas can be changed.
    It is easier to change an idea than a belief, basically


    I'm sympathetic to your view but I use the term 'belief' in a different way to you.

    If I say 'I believe that p' it just means that I hold that p is true. So we all have beliefs, you, me, theists, atheists, agnostics. we can't really function without them.

    So I don't think beliefs are the problem at all, rather it is the process whereby people aquire and modify beliefs that is crucial.

    For me, 'beliefs' could be looked at as being on a spectrum from tentative opinions at one end to dogmas at the other. You seem to be using 'idea' for beliefs on the opinion side of the continuum and 'belief' as synonymous with 'dogma'. I think that is confusing and so I disagree with your strategy.
  8. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    18 Jun '09 12:39
    Originally posted by Lord Shark
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    [b]From the movie 'Dogma'-(chris rock): It is better to have an idea than a belief because if something comes along and contradicts your beliefs it can really rock you,whereas ideas can be changed.
    It is easier to change an idea than a belief, basically


    I'm sympathetic to your view but I use the term 'be ...[text shortened]... s with 'dogma'. I think that is confusing and so I disagree with your strategy.[/b]
    I totally agree with you, however I get this deep feeling that we are all wrong, even though we may be on the right track. So our beliefs are limiting, as much as we cherish and nuture them.
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    18 Jun '09 12:48
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    I totally agree with you, however I get this deep feeling that we are all wrong, even though we may be on the right track. So our beliefs are limiting, as much as we cherish and nuture them.
    I agree to an extent, but I don't think there is a viable alternative to holding beliefs. I think the issue is to form them as reliably as we can, cherish them only to an extent that we can give them up in the face of plausible disconfirmation. But if we don't cherish or nurture some beliefs, we are just blown on the winds of fashionable orthodoxy.

    As the old cliche goes, it is a question of balance.
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    18 Jun '09 13:242 edits
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    From the movie 'Dogma'-(chris rock): It is better to have an idea than a belief because if something comes along and contradicts your beliefs it can really rock you,whereas ideas can be changed.
    It is easier to change an idea than a belief, basically
    Have you ever believed in someone or something that, at times, caused those beliefs to be put to the test? Not all data will support your beliefs are valid even though that belief may be correct or well founded. In addition, if you have no belief, then you are less likely to fight for a cause/person that is "good". A good example is Winston Churchill during WW2. All evidence pointed to the fact that his act of defiance in regards to Hitler and company was in vain, however, he had the belief that their cause was just and, as a result, their cause would prevail if only they were willing to fight. Think about it, at one time they were the only one in Hitlers way after he had taken all of Western Europe with no hope of ever taking them on by themselves. So what sane and rational person would continue to fight? In short, without such resolve in ones beliefs, where would we be today?
  11. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    18 Jun '09 13:36
    Originally posted by whodey
    Have you ever believed in someone or something that, at times, caused those beliefs to be put to the test? Not all data will support your beliefs are valid even though that belief may be correct or well founded. In addition, if you have no belief, then you are less likely to fight for a cause/person that is "good". A good example is Winston Churchill durin ...[text shortened]... d continue to fight? In short, without such resolve in ones beliefs, where would we be today?
    Good point
    Let me put my position another way: It is good to belive and be 'fluid' about what you aspire to . It is not good to have beliefs set in stone.
    the points I make on this forum are about higher (or subtle) learning
    On the base level some good positive beliefs are no doubt beneficial,once we move to more psycological,(inner)learning Beliefs set in stone can be a limiting thing
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    18 Jun '09 13:55
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Religous wars have rocked our history, people fighting in the name of their beliefs. Surely we must do what we can to alleviate suffering.
    Lots of trouble in THIS world because of beliefs
    you are true to state wars are fought with a beleif at its heart. but its more to do with power and greed. the lastest wars a example. very few declare holy wars against another faith.
    lots of trouble in this world yes yes yes but are you ignoring all other troubles other than wars??? killing rape theft are not confind to wars.
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    18 Jun '09 14:00
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    It is not good to have beliefs set in stone.
    So, for example, if somebody starts with premises regarding the transcendental nature of god, that isn't good if they are set in stone either? That's good to know.
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    18 Jun '09 14:037 edits
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Good point
    Let me put my position another way: It is good to belive and be 'fluid' about what you aspire to . It is not good to have beliefs set in stone.
    the points I make on this forum are about higher (or subtle) learning
    On the base level some good positive beliefs are no doubt beneficial,once we move to more psycological,(inner)learning Beliefs set in stone can be a limiting thing
    I agree. For example, as a Christian I have had many beliefs once set in stone but later altered yet I still believe in the teachings and mission of Christ. Just like Winston Churchhills beliefs about freedom, Christs teachings and mission was just and pure and are about freedom as well. Fredeom from what you may ask? It is about freedom from sin in my life, it is about freedom from death, hell, and the grave. Just like Christ once said, he who the Son sets free is free indeed!! That is the good news of the gospel. Therefore, I believe they will prevail no matter the circunstances that say it is utter futility. To say that one has all the answers would be to make oneself God, however, to say that the answers are not out there or that a God is out there who has all the answers is obviously wrong.

    Without beliefs, however, we are a walking generality without goals or purpose. Belief is what shapes our reality around us. Even you have beliefs although I think you only had religious beliefs in mind when you started this thread.
  15. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    18 Jun '09 14:25
    Heres one answer for the 2 posts above:
    Yes I had a belief when I took upon my origonal premise and part of that premise is that my belief(s) would be shattered upon completion of that premise.
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