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Spirituality

Spirituality

  1. Subscriber FMF
    Main Poster
    26 Jul '18 12:04
    Is believing that human beings are rational more childish than believing in religion?

    PODCAST Duration 10 mins:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0499sph

    "Some critics of religion see having faith as being childish. But John Gray argues that believing that human beings are rational is more childish than believing in religion. The belief in the power of reason to improve humankind rests on childishly simple ideas he says. One of the commonest is that history's crimes are mistakes that can be avoided as we gain greater knowledge. But if history teaches us anything, Grey asserts, it's that behaviours and attitudes like cruelty and hatred are permanent human flaws. To imagine that we can become more rational is an example of magical thinking and an expression of the belief in the omnipotence of the human will that psychoanalysts identify as the fundamental infantile fantasy. John Gray believes that we'd all be better off if we saw ourselves as we are: intermittently and only ever partly rational creatures, who never really grow up."

    It'd be interesting to hear the thoughts of atheists and non-religionist theists [in particular] on John Gray's point of view.
  2. 26 Jul '18 12:53 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @fmf
    Is believing that human beings are rational more childish than believing in religion?

    PODCAST Duration 10 mins:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0499sph

    "Some critics of religion see having faith as being childish. But John Gray argues that believing that human beings are rational is more childish than believing in religion. The belief in the power of ...[text shortened]... e thoughts of atheists and non-religionist theists [in particular] on John Gray's point of view.
    Didn't listen to the podcast, but if the text included in your op accurately describes Gray's position, then it doesn't seem to be very well thought out. If anything, it is a "childishly simple idea". A "fundamentally infantile fantasy" as it were.

    For example, there seems to be a failure to recognize that what applies to many does not necessarily apply to all and that just because something "has not been" does not necessarily mean that it "cannot be".

    Does the description of his position accurately describe it?
  3. Subscriber FMF
    Main Poster
    26 Jul '18 13:00
    Originally posted by @thinkofone
    Didn't listen to the podcast, but if the text included in your op accurately describes Gray's position, then it doesn't seem to be very well thought out. If anything, it is a "childishly simple idea". A "fundamentally infantile fantasy" as it were.

    For example, there seems to be a failure to recognize that what applies to many does not necessarily ap ...[text shortened]... arily mean that it "cannot be".

    Does the description of his position accurately describe it?
    Listen to the podcast if you're interested in John Gray's thoughts on this issue.
  4. 26 Jul '18 13:06
    Originally posted by @fmf
    Listen to the podcast if you're interested in John Gray's thoughts on this issue.
    Based on the description included in your OP, I have no interest in learning more about his nonsensical thoughts on this issue.
  5. Subscriber FMF
    Main Poster
    26 Jul '18 13:09
    Originally posted by @thinkofone
    Based on the description included in your OP, I have no interest in learning more about his nonsensical thoughts on this issue.
    OK, thanks.
  6. Standard member karoly aczel
    the Devil himself
    27 Jul '18 03:36
    Originally posted by @fmf
    Is believing that human beings are rational more childish than believing in religion?

    PODCAST Duration 10 mins:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0499sph

    "Some critics of religion see having faith as being childish. But John Gray argues that believing that human beings are rational is more childish than believing in religion. The belief in the power of ...[text shortened]... e thoughts of atheists and non-religionist theists [in particular] on John Gray's point of view.
    Those develop true knowledge have no more need for faith .

    John Gray doesn't see us as we are, he only sees part of the bigger picture and mistakes that part for the whole thing
  7. Standard member apathist
    looking for loot
    10 Aug '18 01:05
    Originally posted by @karoly-aczel
    Those develop true knowledge have no more need for faith .
    Knowledge does not deliver truth, it delivers understanding. Faith delivers only comfort.
  8. Subscriber Ragwort
    Ex Duris Gloria
    10 Aug '18 19:49 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @fmf
    Is believing that human beings are rational more childish than believing in religion?

    PODCAST Duration 10 mins:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0499sph

    "Some critics of religion see having faith as being childish. But John Gray argues that believing that human beings are rational is more childish than believing in religion. The belief in the power of ...[text shortened]... e thoughts of atheists and non-religionist theists [in particular] on John Gray's point of view.
    I have not listened to the podcast (hearing impaired) but hoping this is a transcript

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28341562

    I think the psychological basis for him having a pop at evangelical atheists for appealing to reason (chortle, chortle) are well established but he then appears to do a similar thing himself when ranting about European elite for not seeing impending doom with regard to globalisation and feathering their own nest. His stance seems a little defeatist to me. Many great and good things for humankind have been achieved by individuals and groups, religious or not, swimming against the tide with vision and determination.
  9. Standard member karoly aczel
    the Devil himself
    10 Aug '18 23:29
    Originally posted by @fmf
    Is believing that human beings are rational more childish than believing in religion?

    PODCAST Duration 10 mins:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0499sph

    "Some critics of religion see having faith as being childish. But John Gray argues that believing that human beings are rational is more childish than believing in religion. The belief in the power of ...[text shortened]... e thoughts of atheists and non-religionist theists [in particular] on John Gray's point of view.
    Yes it is more childish. And not in a good way.
  10. Standard member karoly aczel
    the Devil himself
    10 Aug '18 23:30
    Originally posted by @apathist
    Knowledge does not deliver truth, it delivers understanding. Faith delivers only comfort.
    Sure thing 🙂
  11. Subscriber sonhouse
    Fast and Curious
    11 Aug '18 19:56 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by @fmf
    Is believing that human beings are rational more childish than believing in religion?

    PODCAST Duration 10 mins:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0499sph

    "Some critics of religion see having faith as being childish. But John Gray argues that believing that human beings are rational is more childish than believing in religion. The belief in the power of ...[text shortened]... e thoughts of atheists and non-religionist theists [in particular] on John Gray's point of view.
    I think behavior can be 'upgraded' through education. For instance, my parents were very racist but I thought as a child I would try to make at least that one thing better in my generation. When I was like 10 or so, parents divorced, dad takes me to a cafe and I put in coins to a juke box, playing some 50's song, maybe the Pretenders or something like that.
    My dad goes, ''you listen to that nigger shyte?" Unquote.

    That deepened my resolve to try to do better in that regard.

    It seems like through education or self resolve one can change those permanent aspects of humanity.

    Certainly the list of litany against humanity in regards to propensity to violence and such, it is seemingly built in but it seems to me modern humanity has changed in that regard at least in small measure.

    Modern humans have not been around that long in geologic terms, a couple hundred thousand years max and the modern age only a few hundred years.

    I think it's a bit premature to say what is permanently flawed in humanity.
  12. 11 Aug '18 21:07 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @karoly-aczel
    Yes it is more childish. And not in a good way.
    What do you mean?
  13. Standard member karoly aczel
    the Devil himself
    12 Aug '18 04:22
    Originally posted by @divegeester
    What do you mean?
    Childish as in throwing tantrums as opposed to just being naive.
  14. 12 Aug '18 10:16
    Originally posted by @karoly-aczel
    Childish as in throwing tantrums as opposed to just being naive.
    Believing humans are rational is worse than that?
  15. 13 Aug '18 00:22
    False dichotomy...

    The very ideas that man is a rational animal equipped to make his own decisions and participate in democracy is largely rooted in Christian humanism.

    God, I do not even know why you would think this is a good beginning of a discussion.