Bethlehem

Originally posted by josephw
Ok! Who are they?

well let's see.

leaders of israel invade a country. leaders of israel don't want to bother with the conquered nation rebelling at some point. leaders of israel want to justify killing said conquered nation.

i wonder who could be the ones lying in the bible.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]===================================
however, we have been lied by the person who wrote that jericho was god's will.
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I don't have a problem with God passing judgment on Jericho or on His saving of Rehab the harlot and her whole family from the destruction.

For one God had told Abraha ...[text shortened]... these things, "to him to whom much is given will much be expected."[/b]

are you saying that the god who instructed his son jesus to tell humans to turn the other cheek and to love their enemies and those that do him wrong, the god that sent his son to teach us about love, compassion, humility, even if he knew we barbarians would crucify him, this same god would deem the canaanites "so immoral that they would merit annihilation"? is this a god that annihilates?

since then, how many peoples did he annihilate? how many people "deserve" to be annihilated? can you think of one? a people so "evil" that no woman or child could be left alive?

how can you claim you believe in a god of love and still believe that god of love "annihilates" instead of forgive and try and reform?

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]=================================
why would the israelites lie about that genocide? i wonder. you have a people walking in the desert and now wagin a war of invasion. what would be the point of saying its god's will? maybe the make the israelites fight harder? maybe to get a country?

most civilians might not be too keen on murdering every woman ...[text shortened]... Old Testament is too candid be taken simply as national self affirming propoganda.

But it is too hard for God to appoint an especially large fish to swallow a man ?

i stand corrected. yes, it is not hard for god to do that. he indeed could have created a fish that could swallow jonah, not digest him for i don't remember how many days it took for him to man up and repent, give him food and fresh water(i believe they were in the ocean if i am not mistaken) barf him up fresh and sound to go to niniveh. he indeed could have also modified each dna strand in adam's and eve's children or noah's children so they don't produce retards when brother and sister start having kids.

magic, ladies and gents. it solves everything. twhite mentioned that. there is no arguing magic. i could point out that god might have better things to do than constantly do magic throughout the OT and then stop. i could point out that he in his infinite wisdom could create an universe with physical laws in place that could be evolve and be self suficient. but what do i know? i am just a heretic.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
[b]well lets see, proper knob (no matter how wrong he is about the existance of god) uses proper debating techniques. he presents arguments, counterarguments, supports his claims. adjusts to what his opponents argues, reacts to them with new arguments. considers their points and if he is convinced by them, acknowledges them.

Why, thank you very much.[/b]

hey don't thank me it was obvious.

but you're welcome 😀

Originally posted by josephw
roflmao

Ask yourself, a self proclaiming honest person, why would the writers of the books of the Bible lie?

It's a lie that they lied. That's the truth.

You didn't read my whole post did you?

I did read it. I would have responded, but I can't see any point in arguing with somebody whose baseline is that anybody who doesn't share their views and beliefs is mentally ill.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
are you saying that the god who instructed his son jesus to tell humans to turn the other cheek and to love their enemies and those that do him wrong, the god that sent his son to teach us about love, compassion, humility, even if he knew we barbarians would crucify him, this same god would deem the canaanites "so immoral that they would merit annihilation" ...[text shortened]... and still believe that god of love "annihilates" instead of forgive and try and reform?

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are you saying that the god who instructed his son jesus to tell humans to turn the other cheek and to love their enemies and those that do him wrong,
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The verses you are refering to come from the book of Matthew. I believe that what Jesus was actually doing was discribing His own human life. Therefore it is only by receiving the Spirit of Jesus Christ into ourselves that we could possibly live like Him.

The demand is in Matthew. The way to be suppplied and enabled to live up to the demand is in John. In John we see more of how Christ Himself, with His enemy loving nature, comes to make an abode in those who receive Him:

"Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone love Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)

As the resurrected Jesus can come as the Holy Spirit, with His Father, and make an abode within His lovers, they are empowered and enabled to live the highest standard of morality taught in the gospel of Matthew.

"Because I live, you also shall live." (John 14:19)


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the god that sent his son to teach us about love, compassion, humility, even if he knew we barbarians would crucify him, this same god would deem the canaanites "so immoral that they would merit annihilation"? is this a god that annihilates?
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It takes some time to get use to the idea that the same God who is so great in love is also so great in righteousness.

His compassion love, no doubt are so extensive and far reaching. But so also is His hatred for injustice and sin. It is a perculiar mindset that wants God to be eternal in love and mercy but slacking in righteousness.

And if He did not establish a testimony of His terrible punishment against wickedness we would have far less of a backround to appreciate that His redeeming salvation to die in Christ in the sinner's place that the sinner might be saved.

The punihsment of the Canaanites was severe in this life. We do not know how they will fair in the eternal destiny. We have a hint from Jesus, that some people harshly judged in the Old Testament will arise at the last judgment and wonder why others who had Christ come to them didn't repent.

The temperal punishment of the Canaanites may not necessarily be indicative of their eternal destiny.

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since then, how many peoples did he annihilate? how many people "deserve" to be annihilated? can you think of one? a people so "evil" that no woman or child could be left alive?
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As God gave the Canaanites 400 years to demonstrate the downward slide of humanity without God, I think the harshness of their annhilation should be indicative of removing a dangerous cancer from an organism. To save humanity from thier terrible enfluence, probably, they had to be completely removed.

We do not know the effects of consecrating and devoting things and children to the occult. Dedications to demons and consecration of things and people to demonic powers is far more a Satanic infestation of human society then we realize. But God realizes it.

There are many acts of God in the Bible. If the harshness of the Canaanite conquest was the ONLY story, then I would have a problem. As it stands it is one of many in which God's wrath was tempered with varing degrees of mercy. We might consider the book of Jonah as one compassionate end of the spectrum and the book of Joshua as the other most severe end.

As a Bible reader I have to take in the full scope of what I am told about God's ways. I have to consider the full case of examples.

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how can you claim you believe in a god of love and still believe that god of love "annihilates" instead of forgive and try and reform?
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As I said before, I might not appreciate His loving redemptive plan in the Son on Calvary if I had not first witnessed the utter hatred of this righteous God against iniquity.

Upon the backdrop of His just and righteous judgment of sins His plan of salvation in Christ stands out all the more. You have first to see that sin is an abomination to God before you can appreciate that "Him Who knew no sin, He made sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him".

As you read Joshua then, you should look forward to Calvary and Divine Judgment falling on God's Son to pay the dept for all mankind in the eternal scheme of things.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
[b] But it is too hard for God to appoint an especially large fish to swallow a man ?

i stand corrected. yes, it is not hard for god to do that. he indeed could have created a fish that could swallow jonah, not digest him for i don't remember how many days it took for him to man up and repent, give him food and fresh water(i believe they were in t place that could be evolve and be self suficient. but what do i know? i am just a heretic.[/b]

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i stand corrected. yes, it is not hard for god to do that. he indeed could have created a fish that could swallow jonah, not digest him for i don't remember how many days it took for him to man up and repent, give him food and fresh water(i believe they were in the ocean if i am not mistaken) barf him up fresh and sound to go to niniveh.
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Some teachers believe that Jonah actually could have been dead and brought back to life in the beast.

I don't know. I do know that Jesus used Jonah as a symbol of His own death and resurrection.

"For just as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights." (Matt. 12:40)

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magic, ladies and gents. it solves everything. twhite mentioned that. there is no arguing magic. i could point out that god might have better things to do than constantly do magic throughout the OT and then stop. i could point out that he in his infinite wisdom could create an universe with physical laws in place that could be evolve and be self suficient. but what do i know? i am just a heretic.
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Your quip sounds weak to me. God used a medical physician to write both the Gospel of Luke and the book of Acts.

It seems to me that if God were frivolous about practical human remedies and medical advancement (albeit first century) then He would not have ordained a medical docter to accompany the Apostle Paul as a helper and pen down the significant bulk of New Testament material in two major books, Luke and Acts.

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
I did read it. I would have responded, but I can't see any point in arguing with somebody whose baseline is that anybody who doesn't share their views and beliefs is mentally ill.

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I did read it. I would have responded, but I can't see any point in arguing with somebody whose baseline is that anybody who doesn't share their views and beliefs is mentally ill.
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I am not sure you understand Joseph rightly. I will let him speak for himself.

However, what the Bible teaches is that we all have been damaged in our thinking by the effects of sin.

The Christian, if his spiritual life is normal, should be in the process of a healing of this damage. It requires a life time.

This is different from saying "Everyone who disagrees with me has mental problems."

I agree with Joseph, and I am still in the process of having a much needed healing to take place in my own thinking.

And another thing. This sin damage is not a matter of intelligence, IQ, smarts, or ability to reason per se. It is reasoning without God with a view to perpetuating a godless life of sinning.

Here is a passage that illustrates this kind of damaged thinking:

"And He said, That which goes out of a man defiles the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil reasoningsn fornications, thefts, mudrers, adulteries, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, blasoheny, arrogance, foolishness.

All these wicked things proceed from within and defile the man." (Mark 7:21-23)

The benefit of the word of God is that shines a penetrating spiritual light within a man. It stops him and asks "Man, What exactly are you REASONING there ?".

You see Jesus is saying that a man may be very logical about how he is going to go about commiting fornication, adultery, envy, or murder. But his reasonings are wicked and even are defiling his own character.

So we need a healing from the Savior, not to mention forgiveness. Sin has damaged our minds. And out of our damaged minds we defile ourselves.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]=================================
are you saying that the god who instructed his son jesus to tell humans to turn the other cheek and to love their enemies and those that do him wrong,
=================================

The verses you are refering to come from the book of Matthew. I believe that what Jesus was actually doing wa ...[text shortened]... on God's Son to pay the dept for all mankind in the eternal scheme of things.[/b]

i'm sorry, i must have missed the part in the bible where he sends prophets to the canaanites to tell them to repent. i also missed the part where the philistines are obliterated, or perhaps they weren't evil enough.

in fact, save for the noah's flood and sodomah and gomorrah, i don't think god obliterates many cities let alone peoples. why is that? do you find it odd that since the israelites got themselves a country and therefore no need to to invade anyone else, no other nation was deemed "unsalvageable"? there were however a deep xenophobic attitude towards foreigners, they were constantly disposed of.

jesus sends his apostles forward to teach his message. and no matter how jerks the romans are, god doesn't send his chosen people to obliterate them, even after years of them persecuting the christians, years in which they have time to repent.

can't you see your arguments fail?

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
i'm sorry, i must have missed the part in the bible where he sends prophets to the canaanites to tell them to repent. i also missed the part where the philistines are obliterated, or perhaps they weren't evil enough.

in fact, save for the noah's flood and sodomah and gomorrah, i don't think god obliterates many cities let alone peoples. why is that? do y ristians, years in which they have time to repent.

can't you see your arguments fail?

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i'm sorry, i must have missed the part in the bible where he sends prophets to the canaanites to tell them to repent. i also missed the part where the philistines are obliterated, or perhaps they weren't evil enough.
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You begin to put two and two together a bit when you read the Bible. The Gentiles had prophets. At least we know that Balaam was God's prophet in the book of Numbers. We see Jethro as a non-Jewish priest of God in Exodus.

Now, I grant you that no verse says the Canaanites had a warning prophet. But you should not assume that the ONLY activity of God is recorded in the Bible. I assume that God did some things which He chose not to tell in the Bible.

Now I think that it is His way that judgment would first be preceeded by calls to repentence. Though I cannot prove that the Canaanites had warning prophets of God, I certainly would surprised if there were no such divine warnings.

Do you not argue that God should not be so narrow as to slay the ignorant ? Abraham argued this way with God in Genesis 18:23-33.

"Far be it from You to do such a thing, to put to death the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked. Far be it from You! Shall the Judge of all the earth not do justly?" (Gen. 18:25)

I believe that the Canaanites knew that divine judgment was coming unless they dispersed their evil society or repented. It seems His way.

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in fact, save for the noah's flood and sodomah and gomorrah, i don't think god obliterates many cities let alone peoples.
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To me, that point underscores that I have to consider the full scope of His acts. There is a wide range of possibilities. I go on to read more. I do not stop and close the Bible at the destructio of Sodom in Genesis.

I go on to notice other occurances of His dealings with Israel and the surrounding nations.

I notice for example that He used some nations to discipline Israel, Then He punished them for going TOO FAR. As if to say, "Yes I used you to chastize my people. But you used the opportunity to be merciless and over vengeful. Now I will have to judge you for taking it too far."

The revelation of the Bible is progressive. There is wide scope of God's ways to consider for a fuller picture.

But hey, if you WANT to be turned off, just be turned off. Presented with a turkey dinner, I don't hunt for the bones to choke on. There is too much divine longsuffering, patience, mercy, forgiveness, educating, and loving discipline in the Bible for me to be shut down by a couple of chapters in Genesis or Joshua.

Jesus doesn't immediately come in the book of Genesis or Exodus. The Son of God is progressively revealed and arrives in the last 27 of the 69 books of the divine revelation.

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why is that? do you find it odd that since the israelites got themselves a country and therefore no need to to invade anyone else, no other nation was deemed "unsalvageable"? there were however a deep xenophobic attitude towards foreigners, they were constantly disposed of.
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I would have to review what God's instructions were to them concerning foreigners to grasp the mind of God in the matter.

What the Bible records and what the Bible teaches are not always the same. It may record some bad attitudes of Israel toward foreigners. I have to discriminate between what Scripture said HAPPENED sometimes from what it says God INSTRUCTED.

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jesus sends his apostles forward to teach his message. and no matter how jerks the romans are, god doesn't send his chosen people to obliterate them, even after years of them persecuting the christians, years in which they have time to repent.

can't you see your arguments fail?
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No, I do not see a failure in my argument. What I see is that though God's ATTITUDE may be the same, His ACTIONS upon those rejecting His salvation may be TIMED differently.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]=========================================
i'm sorry, i must have missed the part in the bible where he sends prophets to the canaanites to tell them to repent. i also missed the part where the philistines are obliterated, or perhaps they weren't evil enough.
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You begin to put two and two together ...[text shortened]... is ACTIONS upon those rejecting His salvation may be TIMED differently.[/b]

aa, we are trying to assume now? put two and two together?

wonderful how this is allowed in some circumstances and not allowed in others.

so in this case we are allowed to find something to justify the genocide of an entire people. but in other cases we aren't allowed to think that maybe the noah flood was simply a metaphor.

Let me cut to the chase with you.

If God is not real in your experience, if you have no experiencial enjoyment of the reality of God, it is your sins which interfere.

If you have no substantiating enjoyment of God as a personal reality it is not because you do no know enough about Canaan or the ancient Near East.

It is nothing this interesting. It is your sins which have caused a barrier between you and God.

You need to come to Jesus to remove the obstacle of real guilt stemming from real sins.

It is not an intellectual barrier. It is a insulation of your sins which make God unreal to you. Jesus Christ is there for the removal of this obstacle so that there is no longer any problem to you communing with and fellowshipping with the Heavenly Father.

Originally posted by jaywill
Let me cut to the chase with you.

If God is not real in your experience, if you have no experiencial enjoyment of the reality of God, it is your sins which interfere.

If you have no substantiating enjoyment of God as a personal reality it is not because you do no know enough about Canaan or the ancient Near East.

It is nothing this interesting. ...[text shortened]... here is no longer any problem to you communing with and fellowshipping with the Heavenly Father.

why do you assume anyone not agreeing with you doesn't believe in god?


why do you assume that sins are stopping you from seeing the "truth" behind the murder of the canaanites?

if a prophet would come today and tell all the americans that god wants them to invade iran and kill all iranians, would you say it is my sins that stop me from immediately joining(as a volunteer i am not really an american) the slaughter? would you join?

why believe that anything written in the bible is 100% real? it was written by men, and men decided out of a ton of these writings what should be put in the bible. do you think only 3 apostles and a doctor wrote gospels? (don't know who mark is, he might not be an apostle either). why aren't but three of them in the bible?

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
why do you assume anyone not agreeing with you doesn't believe in god?


why do you assume that sins are stopping you from seeing the "truth" behind the murder of the canaanites?

if a prophet would come today and tell all the americans that god wants them to invade iran and kill all iranians, would you say it is my sins that stop me from immediately ...[text shortened]... who mark is, he might not be an apostle either). why aren't but three of them in the bible?

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why do you assume anyone not agreeing with you doesn't believe in god?
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Read my post again.
Quote me where I said you did not believe in God.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]============================
why do you assume anyone not agreeing with you doesn't believe in god?
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Read my post again.
Quote me where I said you did not believe in God.[/b]

"If God is not real in your experience"

god is very real in my experience (assuming you really meant experiencing god as an omnipresent being or something).

but anyway, you kinda missed the point.


what stops you today from believing the "prophets" making one claim or another?

let's say i claim i am a prophet. and let's start off easy, none of that "murdering another people for being in the promised land when they clearly aren't supposed to" yucky stuff.

God told me all men from now on should dye their hair blue. Bald people are by default sinners but so far god hasn't told me what we should do with them so stand by on that.
Now the question is: have you dyed your hair blue yet? are you a sinner as well?
it is ok if you haven't dyed it yet because you are reading the words of the prophet of the lord. but you should go now.