22 Apr 12
What books would the theists on this forum recommend to Googlefudge ?
The OP is because G has recommended several books to Dasa with a view to make him over as "" a human " !
I will certainly recommend the following :-
1) The Bhagavat Geeta-- any English translation ( accompanied by an explanatory
commentary ). There must be several ones available in bookshops wherever
he stays.
2) Any Upanishad Translation-- Let us say of the " Shwetashwataropanishad ".
3) Any translation of " Uddhavgeeta ". Many English translations are available.
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22 Apr 12
Originally posted by rvsakhadeo"sirens of titan" by k.vonnegutt is a good read.
What books would the theists on this forum recommend to Googlefudge ?
The OP is because G has recommended several books to Dasa with a view to make him over as "" a human " !
I will certainly recommend the following :-
1) The Bhagavat Geeta-- any English translation ( accompanied by an explanatory
commentary ). There must be several ones a ...[text shortened]... ".
3) Any translation of " Uddhavgeeta ". Many English translations are available.
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22 Apr 12
Originally posted by rvsakhadeoActually what I said was that after reading them he might "pass for a decent human being"
What books would the theists on this forum recommend to Googlefudge ?
The OP is because G has recommended several books to Dasa with a view to make him over as "" a human " !
I will certainly recommend the following :-
1) The Bhagavat Geeta-- any English translation ( accompanied by an explanatory
commentary ). There must be several ones a ...[text shortened]... ".
3) Any translation of " Uddhavgeeta ". Many English translations are available.
which is different from what you said.
I was of course being flippant although if he did take to heart the content of the books I
suggested he would be a lot nicer than he is currently.
I would rather hope that you are not about to compare me with someone who calls for
genocide and capital punishment for anyone who disagrees with him.
And no I will not be reading any of your religious texts any time soon (if ever).
This is not to say that they might not be an interesting read and might not contain great poetry
or be a fascinating insight into the beliefs of the people in one of the major religions of the world.
But I have far more important and relevant (for me) things to do and read.
I might also note that while I presented dasa with a list of books designed to broaden his knowledge
and understanding of the universe as backed up by science as well as some great story telling and satire
that might make him think about how terrible the things he suggests are (without in any way threatening
his religious convictions or faith) You list off a set of your holy books as the most important things I should
read... Interesting.
22 Apr 12
Originally posted by googlefudgeThere are plenty of stories in Uddhavgeeta which will evoke an interest in you to delve into this matter further. There is absolutely no harm in trying to read what you are dismissing as 'RELIGIOUS TEXTS ".They contain no matter which will fill your mind with confusion, fear or hatred. There are no attempts to disprove anything nor prove anything. But if you dismiss this reading as less important or irrelevant, I have to say your intellectual curiosity is confined to the books containing opinions you accept and nothing else. If you do not care to know what the other side is saying, where is the debate ?
Actually what I said was that after reading them he might "pass for a decent human being"
which is different from what you said.
I was of course being flippant although if he did take to heart the content of the books I
suggested he would be a lot nicer than he is currently.
I would rather hope that you are not about to compare me with someo ...[text shortened]... list off a set of your holy books as the most important things I should
read... Interesting.
22 Apr 12
Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
There are plenty of stories in Uddhavgeeta which will evoke an interest in you to delve into this matter further. There is absolutely no harm in trying to read what you are dismissing as 'RELIGIOUS TEXTS ".They contain no matter which will fill your mind with confusion, fear or hatred. There are no attempts to disprove anything nor prove anything. But if ...[text shortened]... nothing else. If you do not care to know what the other side is saying, where is the debate ?
There is absolutely no harm in trying to read what you are dismissing as 'RELIGIOUS TEXTS ".
“ absolutely no harm in trying to read” what we know to be a load of boring irrelevant religious crap that would inevitably bore us rational atheists out of our minds? -at best, you are completely missing the point here.
They contain no matter which will fill your mind with confusion, fear or hatred.
-as if this is the reason why we don't want to read a load of boring irrelevant religious crap 😛
-NO, it is NOT “confusion, fear or hatred” we “fear” from wasting our time reading crap -we just got better things to do and more relevant interests.
22 Apr 12
Originally posted by humyFor a while, you can put up with " boring crap ", if it makes you familiar with what is the book trying to say.There is absolutely no harm in trying to read what you are dismissing as 'RELIGIOUS TEXTS ".
“ absolutely no harm in trying to read” what we know to be a load of boring irrelevant religious crap that would inevitably bore us rational atheists out of our minds? -at best, you are completely missing the point here.
[quote] They contain no m ...[text shortened]... m wasting our time reading crap -we just got better things to do and more relevant interests.
There could be no debate till at least you know what this book is containing. You are prejudging far too hastily, I must say.
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22 Apr 12
Originally posted by rvsakhadeoAhem, I would like to concur with humy and say that there is absolutely no way your religious
For a while, you can put up with " boring crap ", if it makes you familiar with what is the book trying to say.
There could be no debate till at least you know what this book is containing. You are prejudging far too hastily, I must say.
books could "fill [my] mind with confusion, fear or hatred" and worrying about that is not even
remotely close to being a reason I am not about to read those books.
And I don't "Just seek out opinions I already agree with" either.
I seek out plenty of contrary and challenging opinions on a wide array of subjects.
However I expect those opinions to be backed up with evidence and reason.
As I have said to RJHinds a number of times,
Before I am going to care what the bible says about a subject you need to demonstrate why I
should care what the bible says about a subject.
In other words prove that your god exists and that that god inspired/wrote the bible and then
I might take an interest.
I take the same position about any other holy book or religious text.
Prove that your religion is real and true and I might pay attention to what it's holy books say.
Now there are of course other reasons for reading the texts, as I said they might contain great poetry
or stories, or i might be interested in the cultural impact of the religion and want to understand it better.
However none of those other reasons apply to me at the present time and I don't see that changing any
time soon.
I don't know anyone in real life who believes in this religion, This religion has no significant impact on the
society I live in, and I have access to a vast array of stories and poetry I can read that appeals to me more
than what you are offering.
Now there might come a time when that might change and i might have a reason to read these books.
But until then there are a vast array of more interesting/useful books for me to read.
22 Apr 12
Originally posted by googlefudgeYou seem to have a prejudice about the words "Religion " and " Religious Text ". Take Uddhav Geeta as --let us say ramblings of a dead society from the past--say something like the Lomokome Papers mentioned in the novel of that name by Herman Wouk or let us say these are the Dead Sea Scrolls of the Hindus or let us say that this a code book which you need to decode. Will your interest, then, be there or not ?
Ahem, I would like to concur with humy and say that there is absolutely no way your religious
books could "fill [my] mind with confusion, fear or hatred" and worrying about that is not even
remotely close to being a reason I am not about to read those books.
And I don't "Just seek out opinions I already agree with" either.
I seek out plenty o ...[text shortened]...
But until then there are a vast array of more interesting/useful books for me to read.
The books are about Spiritualism and not about a Hindu God.
Your prescription that first someone has to convince you about a theory before you will take up any book on that theory is very strange and indicative of a closed mind.
Treat these books as Fiction but you should read them if you want to debate about Spiritualism as enunciated by the Hindu sages. I assure you that Uddhav Geeta will be an " unputdownable book ", if you care to open it. And the other two books will be an intellectual treasure of thinking that will definitely interest you.
Certainly these are not " boring and crap ".
So what do you say ?
22 Apr 12
Originally posted by rvsakhadeoWell I found a link to that:
You seem to have a prejudice about the words "Religion " and " Religious Text ". Take Uddhav Geeta as --let us say ramblings of a dead society from the past--say something like the Lomokome Papers mentioned in the novel of that name by Herman Wouk or let us say these are the Dead Sea Scrolls of the Hindus or let us say that this a code book which you need ...[text shortened]... nitely interest you.
Certainly these are not " boring and crap ".
So what do you say ?
http://www.scribd.com/doc/22837537/A-Quintessence-of-Uddhava-Gita-pdf
I assume this is just a short version of it?
All nice allegory and such but there still is the main theme of the underlying vision that there is a god who watches over us and such.
The things that are positive here is the idea that you can work to control your mind and become a better person thereby is good but the way things are described there would suggest one should forgo all worldly aspirations to reach some kind of godhood.
That sounds to me like they are saying, hey, you don't have to keep on being a blacksmith, a baker, a candlestick maker, an auto worker, a prostitute, give up all that worldly junk and become godlike.
That does leave us with the small problem of where we get our housing, food, and such. If everyone became a guru and accepted whatever food came along, good or bad, high quality or crap, there would be nobody left to actually produce such good or bad food.
If you believe that all that would be magically provided if you become godlike you are sadly mistaken.
There still needs to be farmers, hunters, fishermen, carpenters and such.
We can't ALL be gods.
Maybe you think all would be provided for by magic or something but that is not the real world.
Don't get me wrong, I think the way of thinking of some of these guru's can make people better people, maybe less likely to be violent, be kinder and so forth but I don't think your philosophy will lead to anything better than that. Not that that is a bad thing in itself. We need kinder gentler people on the earth and the more the merrier but that in itself is not going to bring us to the attention of some kind of god. There is still that idea there is no god to come down and make us all happy and there still is the burden of proof on your part to show such gods exist.
The state of the world even in your Hindu paradise is not so great even after thousands of years of this religion being around. If there was anything really godly involved, the world after five thousand years of such religious practice should have resulted in an already made heaven hear on earth.
It has not and will not. Like the guy said, show me the money. The spiritual money that leads to godhood. You cannot, you can only show me words, the same kind of words all the other religions of the world show, words words and more words, even though some of the followers are nicer people because of them, that alone does not prove godhood, it only shows that we can lift ourselves up by our bootstraps to a certain point. But not to the point of godhood.
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22 Apr 12
Originally posted by rvsakhadeoWhat about GF are we trying to fix?
What books would the theists on this forum recommend to Googlefudge ?
The OP is because G has recommended several books to Dasa with a view to make him over as "" a human " !
I will certainly recommend the following :-
1) The Bhagavat Geeta-- any English translation ( accompanied by an explanatory
commentary ). There must be several ones a ...[text shortened]... ".
3) Any translation of " Uddhavgeeta ". Many English translations are available.
22 Apr 12
1 edit
Originally posted by sonhouseNice of you to actually read the Uddhav Geeta, rather call it " Boring " and " Crap ".
Well I found a link to that:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/22837537/A-Quintessence-of-Uddhava-Gita-pdf
I assume this is just a short version of it?
All nice allegory and such but there still is the main theme of the underlying vision that there is a god who watches over us and such.
The things that are positive here is the idea that you can work to an lift ourselves up by our bootstraps to a certain point. But not to the point of godhood.
For your information, the path does not require that you literally give up everything and become a monk. Who is going to feed the monks if there is nobody to till the fields, you are right about that. What is meant by Vairagya is non-attachment to worldly pleasures. You may be a householder and blacksmith etc. by profession, yet you are on way to Liberation if you stop attaching yourself to your actions. Do not attach yourself to the worldly pleasures means that you should know all the time that these pleasures are transitory, this body is not going to last forever, the actions may or may not bring forth the desired results and so on, yet just be as if you are the Lotus Leaf in water to which water cannot stick. Be a witness to life, don't get so engrossed that you forget who you are and what is reality.
Also Non-attachment does not mean lack of attention e.g. the example of the arrow-maker in the Uddhav Geeta !
God does not provide anything magically or non-magically.
God says in the Geeta that people pretending to be non-attached to the world are actually putting on a false show. God says in the Geeta that you must do your duty, sincerely, but without longing for its fruit. If this is difficult for you to do, simply perform your duty, as if you are doing it for God and forget the rest.
If you are saying that God has not solved problems of poverty in India, inspite of it being an old Hindu nation, are you not mistaking God for the British rule and subsequent incompetent and corrupt governments ? Or do you believe in Magical powers of God ?
Yes, I cannot offer you more than words, but let me assure you that there are plenty of Gurus around, who can give you the direct experience that you are longing for ! I only hope that the day should not be far-off !
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22 Apr 12
Originally posted by rvsakhadeoOK then I will recommend Alan Watts' The Book on the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are (1966) Fewer than 150 pages.
Well, he such a logical and well read person, and I desired that he should have gone through our books ! That way, may be he could have realised that the other side is not without any merit.
This should have some appeal to the organized mind.
Here are some quotes:
The prevalent sensation of oneself as a separate ego enclosed in a bag of skin is a hallucination which accords neither with Western science nor with the experimental philosophy-religions of the East…
Every individual is an expression of the whole realm of nature, a unique action of the total universe.
The prevalent sensation of oneself as a separate ego enclosed in a bag of skin is a hallucination which accords neither with Western science nor with the experimental philosophy-religions of the East — in particular the central and germinal Vedanta philosophy of Hinduism. This hallucination underlies the misuse of technology for the violent subjugation of man's natural environment and, consequently, its eventual destruction.
We are therefore in urgent need of a sense of our own existence which is in accord with the physical facts and which overcomes our feeling of alienation from the universe.
There is always something taboo, something repressed, unadmitted, or just glimpsed quickly out of the corner of one's eye because a direct look is too unsettling. Taboos lie within taboos, like the skin of an onion.
Wonder is not a disease. Wonder, and its expression in poetry and the arts, are among the most important things which seem to distinguish men from other animals, and intelligent and sensitive people from morons.
The world is in an extremely dangerous situation, and serious diseases often require the risk of a dangerous cure — like the Pasteur serum for rabies.
We do not "come into" this world; we come out of it, as leaves from a tree. As the ocean "waves," the universe "peoples." Every individual is an expression of the whole realm of nature, a unique action of the total universe. This fact is rarely, if ever, experienced by most individuals. Even those who know it to be true in theory do not sense or feel it, but continue to be aware of themselves as isolated "egos" inside bags of skin.
The most strongly enforced of all known taboos is the taboo against knowing who or what you really are behind the mask of your apparently separate, independent, and isolated ego.
I seem to be a brief light that flashes but once in all the aeons of time — a rare, complicated, and all-too-delicate organism on the fringe of biological evolution, where the wave of life bursts into individual, sparkling, and multicolored drops that gleam for a moment... only to vanish forever.
Nothing fails like success.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Alan_Watts