1. Subscriberdivegeester
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    12 Feb '11 22:391 edit
    Addiction: It is said that once you are addicted to alcohol or nicotine you are always addicted - even if you actually stop drinking or smoking. It cannot be possible to attribute the same principle to theism, because if you take the position that there is no God, then there is actually nothing to be "addicted" to, is there. So therefore, why would a theist stick so adamantly to their belief and why can't they so easily change their own mind on the matter?
  2. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
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    12 Feb '11 23:08
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Addiction: It is said that once you are addicted to alcohol or nicotine you are always addicted - even if you actually stop drinking or smoking. It cannot be possible to attribute the same principle to theism, because if you take the position that there is no God, then there is actually nothing to be "addicted" to, is there. So therefore, why would a t ...[text shortened]... o adamantly to their belief and why can't they so easily change their own mind on the matter?
    we are habituated onto this planet when we suck in our first lung full of air. Life on this planet is a tough addiction to break, to be sure.
    You gotta be ready to let go of the whole phyiscal-psycological edifice. You gotta keep a sense of humour when your ego's being attacked.
  3. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
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    13 Feb '11 02:43
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Addiction: It is said that once you are addicted to alcohol or nicotine you are always addicted - even if you actually stop drinking or smoking. It cannot be possible to attribute the same principle to theism, because if you take the position that there is no God, then there is actually nothing to be "addicted" to, is there. So therefore, why would a t ...[text shortened]... o adamantly to their belief and why can't they so easily change their own mind on the matter?
    There are no shortage of atheists who used to be theists. In fact, I'd say a sizable percentage of atheists used to be theists. Dan Barker, of the Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) is one prominent example. You could probably find several on these forums as well. I was raised as a moderate, cultural Christian. It wasn't until high school that I realized I was actually an atheist. My wife was a Christian until well into adulthood. She sang in the choir. But she's an atheist now.
  4. Subscribersonhouse
    Fast and Curious
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    13 Feb '11 03:471 edit
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Addiction: It is said that once you are addicted to alcohol or nicotine you are always addicted - even if you actually stop drinking or smoking. It cannot be possible to attribute the same principle to theism, because if you take the position that there is no God, then there is actually nothing to be "addicted" to, is there. So therefore, why would a t ...[text shortened]... o adamantly to their belief and why can't they so easily change their own mind on the matter?
    Well, strange as it seems, my daughter and her husband, both Bahai, he is from India, she is from Denver, they both teach at university in Natal Brazil now, but they saw in the religion they thought more pure than other Judea-Christian-Islam based religions (Bahai is an offshoot of Islam). They thought they were in such a pure religion but then started to notice there were no women in the upper ranks, just like all the other major religions. That started them on a journey that led to them both 'converting' to atheism.
    So I know it can happen, right in my own family it did.

    I myself had a Lutheran upbringing, Lutheran school from K to 8, but my grandmother was a strident Pentacostal. She told me when I was 8 yo, if I did not get baptized in the PENTACOSTAL way (whole body dunking) instead of that pathetic Catholic/Lutheran dribbling of a few drops of water, you call that BAPTISM?
    You will go to hell if you don't get a Pentacostal baptism. So I did, like the good little kid I was. Then started thinking, this is nuts, the whole stupid thing is nuts, Christianity is a scam.

    I am eternally grateful for my grandmother pointing out how I would go to hell if I only relied on the Lutheran method of baptism.

    After that I came to the conclusion the entire world of religion was nuts, nobody on earth knew anything more than anyone else about the god business, so I rejected all of it. If some god comes down and strikes me down for daring to totally disbelieve ALL of them, so be it.
  5. Cape Town
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    13 Feb '11 06:421 edit
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Addiction: It is said that once you are addicted to alcohol or nicotine you are always addicted - even if you actually stop drinking or smoking. It cannot be possible to attribute the same principle to theism, because if you take the position that there is no God, then there is actually nothing to be "addicted" to, is there. So therefore, why would a t ...[text shortened]... o adamantly to their belief and why can't they so easily change their own mind on the matter?
    If God doesn't exist, then nobody can be addicted to God. But religion does exist regardless of whether God exists, and it is perfectly possible to be addicted to religion (again regardless of whether or not God exists - so even theists should admit that this is possible).
    Many people like the social aspects of religion, many people keep their true beliefs to themselves and wont tell you what they really believe.
    I find it interesting that surveys often find that a large percentage of Christians don't believe in life after death.
  6. Lowlands paradise
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    13 Feb '11 08:08
    Such conversions happen more frequently than in the past. Where else could the atheists have come from?
  7. Subscriberdivegeester
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    13 Feb '11 08:24
    I am often (naively) astounded when I read some of the accounts of people's upbringing within religious groups; the extremism, the fear-mongering the abuse. Most people here at rhp Spirituality Central who have a religious past, seem to be of a Christian background. I was brought up in what I believe was a decent Christian family although my lifestyle as a teenager was restricted which was a big area of contention in the house. I can completely understand the thinking “this is nuts”. I left home at 18 sharp to find my individuality and get away from religion and by default adopted atheism as the only logical position.

    Many years later I became a Christian but very quickly rejected the organised denominational factions after finding myself in what can only be described as a friendly but manipulative group who were trying to get money out of me. I’m nobody’s fool and there were words exchanged followed by a stiff letter and I have never gone back, and never will. I despise organised religion. However and here is the relevant part to this thread, I never once blamed God for the situation I was in nor the state of the Church organisation – God wasn’t in there much as far as I could tell, at least not centrally but despite the emotional upheaval of getting out of the system, I could not abandon God. I’ve thought about this a lot and am convinced it is simply because even if I did, he would not abandon me.

    Having been through that difficult “church” experience (I’ve left out the detail) I still find that a return to the emptiness of atheism has no appeal whatsoever and yet I often feel more akin to atheist thinking than another supposed Christian ideology and indoctrination. I just seem to understand the logical appeal of atheism even though I'm an addicted theist.
  8. Standard memberKellyJay
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    13 Feb '11 08:32
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Addiction: It is said that once you are addicted to alcohol or nicotine you are always addicted - even if you actually stop drinking or smoking. It cannot be possible to attribute the same principle to theism, because if you take the position that there is no God, then there is actually nothing to be "addicted" to, is there. So therefore, why would a t ...[text shortened]... o adamantly to their belief and why can't they so easily change their own mind on the matter?
    Depends if all there was, was just a mental acceptance that God was real and no
    real relationship, sure very possible.
    Kelly
  9. Lowlands paradise
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    13 Feb '11 08:46
    Originally posted by divegeester
    I am often (naively) astounded when I read some of the accounts of people's upbringing within religious groups; the extremism, the fear-mongering the abuse. Most people here at rhp Spirituality Central who have a religious past, seem to be of a Christian background. I was brought up in what I believe was a decent Christian family although my lifestyle ...[text shortened]... n. I just seem to understand the logical appeal of atheism even though I'm an addicted theist.
    Sounds good to me. Keep peeling the onion. There are so many layers. In my world atheism is also a layer of the onion of -ism's and 'truths'. I don't need to chose between theism and atheism. Just my world.
  10. Standard memberrvsakhadeo
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    13 Feb '11 13:11
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Well, strange as it seems, my daughter and her husband, both Bahai, he is from India, she is from Denver, they both teach at university in Natal Brazil now, but they saw in the religion they thought more pure than other Judea-Christian-Islam based religions (Bahai is an offshoot of Islam). They thought they were in such a pure religion but then started to n ...[text shortened]... me god comes down and strikes me down for daring to totally disbelieve ALL of them, so be it.
    Religion has caused much misery in this world for thousands of years-nobody disputes that ! But is not "Religion" a system created man to have some kind of Social Order - but also a bloody way of keeping down independent thinking etc.? Is not Spiritualism something different than going to Church and believe in stories of Adam and Eve ? Why berate theism when what you want is to give a bloody nose to religious fanatics ? Man's hunt for answers cannot be stopped or delimited by Atheism. Spiritual Quest and a belief in God transcends all religions.
  11. Joined
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    13 Feb '11 18:57
    Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
    Religion has caused much misery in this world for thousands of years-nobody disputes that ! But is not "Religion" a system created man to have some kind of Social Order - but also a bloody way of keeping down independent thinking etc.? Is not Spiritualism something different than going to Church and believe in stories of Adam and Eve ? Why berate theism w ...[text shortened]... topped or delimited by Atheism. Spiritual Quest and a belief in God transcends all religions.
    The problem I have with theism is that once you convince yourself of one absurd belief (such as their exists a god) then it suddenly comes much easier to convince yourself of other absurd beliefs (such as flying passenger aircraft into tall buildings can be a good thing to do). I mean, if one absurdity is acceptable (to you) then why not “anything goes”?


    “...Man's hunt for answers cannot be stopped or delimited by Atheism. ...”

    that's right: that's because atheism comes about as a result of independent thinking as opposed to blindly believing whatever religion tells you what to should believe.
    Man's hunt for answers cannot be stopped or delimited by Atheism because that hunt (providing it is genuine) for answers naturally leads to atheism.
  12. Subscriberdivegeester
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    13 Feb '11 19:062 edits
    Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
    The problem I have with theism is that once you convince yourself of one absurd belief (such as their exists a god) then it suddenly comes much easier to convince yourself of other absurd beliefs (such as flying passenger aircraft into tall buildings can be a good thing to do). I mean, if one absurdity is acceptable (to you) then why not “anything goes" ...
    This must be one of the very few posts you have made that is complete tosh Andrew.

    What you are saying is a akin to saying that - "the problem I have with Einstein's work is that it leads to some idiot thinking, you know what, I'm going to create a weapon out of that work which will flatten cities and burn thouands of people to a crisp in a micro-second".

    I respect atheists and understand the mocking at times, but this"all the problems of the world are down to religion" type of rationalisation is completely retarded imo.
  13. Cape Town
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    13 Feb '11 19:19
    Originally posted by divegeester
    I respect atheists and understand the mocking at times, but this"all the problems of the world are down to religion" type of rationalisation is completely retarded imo.
    He didn't say that. Read his post again a with a bit less anger this time. I for one think he is correct. Once you accept one irrational belief it becomes easier accept others.
  14. Joined
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    13 Feb '11 19:391 edit
    Originally posted by divegeester
    This must be one of the very few posts you have made that is complete tosh Andrew.

    What you are saying is a akin to saying that - "the problem I have with Einstein's work is that it leads to some idiot thinking, you know what, I'm going to create a weapon out of that work which will flatten cities and burn thouands of people to a crisp in a micr of the world are down to religion" type of rationalisation is completely retarded imo.
    As twhitehead has said, I didn't say that.

    “...I respect atheists and understand the mocking at times, but this"all the problems of the world are down to religion" type of rationalisation is completely retarded imo. ...”

    I wouldn't say “ all the problems of the world are down to religion”
    but I would say “many but not all problems of the world are down to absurd beliefs”.
    And “having one absurd belief makes it easier for you to gain more absurd beliefs”
  15. Lowlands paradise
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    13 Feb '11 19:39
    Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
    The problem I have with theism is that once you convince yourself of one absurd belief (such as their exists a god) then it suddenly comes much easier to convince yourself of other absurd beliefs (such as flying passenger aircraft into tall buildings can be a good thing to do). I mean, if one absurdity is acceptable (to you) then why not “anything go ...[text shortened]... Atheism because that hunt (providing it is genuine) for answers naturally leads to atheism.
    "Man's hunt for answers cannot be stopped or delimited by Atheism because that hunt (providing it is genuine) for answers naturally leads to atheism.
    A rather amazing statement. Can you clarify that? My search leads me to a point best to describe as "I don't know" and I find it very likely that I never will know.
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