Capital Punishment: Murder?

Originally posted by rwingett
Yes, the state will murder someone in a cold-blooded, premeditated fashion to show the populace that murdering people in a cold-blooded, premeditated fashion is wrong. Makes perfect sense.

Beyond your thought and looking at the BIG picture of a truly "legal balance of the scales of justice", if you knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that you would be executed if you took the like of another, would you seriously not think it just might be a deterrent to you?
Or if you stole a mans car and you knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that if you got caught, you would absolutly be required to pay back the exact cost of that car to that person? What if you couldn't? Then in the balanced scale example you would have to work that price off to him in labor until it was deemed an equal redemption?
Do you get the point of an "eye for an eye?"

And the big point here that is being missed, in God's eyes the wages of sin is death and that death of a person cancels out all previous sins. The slate is clean and that person is promissed a resurrection back to life in the future. So in an absolute way of justice that debt of the sin of killing another has been paid and now that guilty person is able to start again with a clean slate. That is justice and love displayed by God which is beyond any justice system that man can institute.
Why would anyone have an issue with this?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes because lets face it, you are Jesus! What is the soul, i do not understand, can you
tell me?

The BODY. This is your PHYSICAL component of being. It is flesh made from a collection of unremarkable mineral elements (but is mostly water) and is in harmony with the nature and spirit of this world. It grows, matures, begins to deteriorate, eventually dies, and then decomposes back into its constituent elements and remains a part of the dust of the world. The body is a part of you but is NOT ALL of what defines who YOU are.

"And thou mourn at the last, when thy flesh and thy body are consumed,"
(Proverbs 5:11 KJV)

The SOUL. This is who YOU are; it is a part of your SPIRITUAL component. This is your individuality, your "I AM" so to speak (made in God’s image), your "heart." Although your individual soul did not exist before your mother and father procreated you, it will exist forever. It cannot be killed by man:

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
(Matt. 10:28 KJV)

When your body dies your soul (YOU) will leave the body of flesh:

"And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin."
(Genesis 35:18 KJV)

So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
(2 Corinthians 5:6-8 NKJV)

HalleluYah !!! Paraise the Lord! Holy! Holy! Holy!

Originally posted by galveston75
Beyond your thought and looking at the BIG picture of a truly "legal balance of the scales of justice", if you knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that you would be executed if you took the like of another, would you seriously not think it just might be a deterrent to you?
Or if you stole a mans car and you knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that if you got ...[text shortened]... ond any justice system that man can institute.
Why would anyone have an issue with this?

"Do you get the point of an "eye for an eye?"

Does your Bible say this?
"Do you get the point of an "eye for an eye?"

Matthew
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[h] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also."

Originally posted by JS357
"Do you get the point of an "eye for an eye?"

Does your Bible say this?
"Do you get the point of an "eye for an eye?"

Matthew
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[h] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also."

I completely understand this. Do you as this seemingly contradicts itself?

Originally posted by galveston75
if you knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that you would be executed if you took the like of another, would you seriously not think it just might be a deterrent to you?

This statement is contrary to all the evidence.

The Death Penalty is not a deterrent.

Murderers do not expect to be caught so the punishment is irrelevant to them.

btw: Is the Death Penalty what stops you from killing?

Originally posted by sumydid
What the skeptics can't seem to understand is,
by ending the life of someone who has wrongfully
ended the life of another person... the highest
premium on the value of human life is established.

Congratulations! You have ridiculed your own argument in the OP.

Originally posted by galveston75
I completely understand this. Do you as this seemingly contradicts itself?

I think it would be useful to this thread to deal with this verse in full, because it is sometimes brought up by one side or the other in such discussions. I am undecided as to whether and when capital punishment is justified, so I am following the thread more than participating.

I am confident that my understanding of the verse will be disagreed with by somebody if not everybody. My interpretation is that the original Hammurabic law was intended to SCALE BACK the extent of retaliatory violence, by allowing at most, only equivalent retribution*. Then Matthew 5:38 said there are some lesser affronts we should take without demanding retribution. IOW, the eye for eye rule was being used for too many minor offenses.

*and equivalent retribution was only allowed between members of the same class. For example, if a noble killed someone's slave, the noble was not to be killed. He would pay the owner.

Originally posted by galveston75
Beyond your thought and looking at the BIG picture of a truly "legal balance of the scales of justice", if you knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that you would be executed if you took the like of another, would you seriously not think it just might be a deterrent to you?
Or if you stole a mans car and you knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that if you got ...[text shortened]... ond any justice system that man can institute.
Why would anyone have an issue with this?

Capital punishment is not a deterrent. Beyond that, I have no idea what you're talking about.

Originally posted by JS357
"Do you get the point of an "eye for an eye?"

Does your Bible say this?
"Do you get the point of an "eye for an eye?"

Matthew
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[h] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turning_the_other_cheek

Jesus’ call to “turn to him also the other” or as is often quipped “turn the other cheek” is NOT a call to simply ignore the insult. It is telling us to DEMAND EQUALITY! Stand up to your oppressor! Don’t take insults and attacks lying down! Martin Luther King Jr used this advice to fight for equality in a nonviolent way.

Jesus does not intend this to mean that we must never defend ourselves from attack or that it is wrong to bear arms or join the police or military to enforce the civil law or to defend ourselves from an aggressor. Jesus said himself that He had not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it.

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill."
(Matthew 5:17 NKJV)

P. S. Jesus also believed in paying taxes as the civil law required and called a tax collector as a disciple.

Originally posted by RJHinds
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turning_the_other_cheek

Jesus’ call to “turn to him also the other” or as is often quipped “turn the other cheek” is NOT a call to simply ignore the insult. It is telling us to DEMAND EQUALITY! Stand up to your oppressor! Don’t take insults and attacks lying down! Martin Luther King Jr used this advice to fight for equalit ...[text shortened]... so believed in paying taxes as the civil law required and called a tax collector as a disciple.

Do not (always) return violence with violence is a reasonable interpretation.

Capital punishment is murder in my book.Death is a real big problem in the western first world countries.
I believe that human life is the most important life on this planet. The reason for that is I am a human and I identify with my own species more than any other. That is not to say that I do not hold ALL life very highly ,much like a Buddhist, because I do, it is just prioritizing my values.

If a society has to murder people ( as in law) to 'keep the peace', so to say, then there is a problem at the 'roots' of the system, not at the 'branches' they keep trimming.

Originally posted by JS357
Do not (always) return violence with violence is a reasonable interpretation.

Okay.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I do not see human life as near as important to God as the life of the soul. Christ gave up His human life to save the lives of our souls from the eternal torment of hell fire.

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Holy! Holy! Holy!

Seems like Kabuki theater to me. Why all the bother? If, ultimately, it's souls that matter, then God could have had us live entirely as souls. Surely whatever point there is to this embodied life God could have realized without the passion play. In any case, if human life isn't really that important, then I guess Christ didn't give up anything that important in his sacrifice... Of course, God could have structured the world so we didn't need saving in the first place, but whatever. The whole thing is Baroque nonsense.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Capital punishment is murder in my book.Death is a real big problem in the western first world countries.
I believe that human life is the most important life on this planet. The reason for that is I am a human and I identify with my own species more than any other. That is not to say that I do not hold ALL life very highly ,much like a Buddhist, bec ...[text shortened]... there is a problem at the 'roots' of the system, not at the 'branches' they keep trimming.

Indeed, there is a problem in the society when someone murders another member. But prohibiting capital punishment is not going to solve the problem. Eliminating the evil perpetrator from society is the only way that we can deal with the evil that is already there. Peaceful resolutions must be taught to every citizen as a child. This must also include correct moral values and the worth of the individual person as a creature in the image of a good creator God.
The belief in this God is of utmost importance, if we ever intend to have a peace loving society with love for each other.

Originally posted by bbarr
Seems like Kabuki theater to me. Why all the bother? If, ultimately, it's souls that matter, then God could have had us live entirely as souls. Surely whatever point there is to this embodied life God could have realized without the passion play. In any case, if human life isn't really that important, then I guess Christ didn't give up anything that import ...[text shortened]... e didn't need saving in the first place, but whatever. The whole thing is Baroque nonsense.

You are trying to built a straw man as FMF calls it by stating something I did not say and arguing against it. I did not say "human life isn't really that important." What I did say was that "I do not see human life as near as important to God as the life of the soul." I believe God wants to save and rehabilitate the soul to have right beliefs so that He can restore the physical body at the resurrection. If the soul becomes evil in disbelief and disobedience it will only cause more trouble if allowed to roam free like Satan has. God did not create physical bodies to destroy all of them in a lake of fire. I must stop now and go play Junior monopoly with my grandson. Will be back later.