1. Subscriberno1marauder
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    27 Dec '05 04:261 edit
    The Roman Catholic Church is in the final stages of declaring Cardinal Stepinac, the head of the Roman Catholic Church in the fascist puppet state of Croatia during WW II, a saint. The country of Yugoslavia was invaded by the Nazis on April 6, 1941; fascist Croatians of the Utsase movement declared their "independence" from Yugoslavia and vowed to assist the German invaders while the Yugoslav army was still heroically, though hopelessly, resisting the Nazis. The NDH is the acronoym for the fascist Croatian state. Some details follow:

    Despite advising clergy to steer clear of politics, on April 12, 1941 paid a visit of his own accord to Slavko Kvaternik, and on April 16 to poglavnik Ante Pavelic to give NDH and Ustase regime his personal endorsement. Also broadcast his support for the NDH in a radio address to the Croatian people, all of which occured before the Royal Yugoslav Army capitulated. Informed by letter by Bishop Alojzije Misic of Mostar of the ghastly massacres undertaken by the Ustase against local Serbs and Jews, but merely passed on the letter to Pavelic. Vigorously defended the Ustase to Pope Pius XII and the Vatican secretary of state during visits in 1942 and 1943. Catholic newspapers during the war kept to official guidelines and published appalling attacks on Jews and Serbs and effluviant praise of the poglavnik and the Ustase. As head of the Croatian Catholic Church was in charge of the mass conversion of Serbs to Catholicism and the adoption of Serb children orphaned by the Ustase massacres by Croatian, Catholic families, and certainly equated Orthodoxy with heresy.

    Defenders allege he protected some Jews from falling into the hands of the Ustase and Gestapo, that he spoke privately of his displeasure to Pavelic and other Ustase leaders, refraining from speaking publicly for fear that the church would lose its influence altogether. Critics argue that after German and Italian attempts to rein in the Ustase failed, the Church was the only organ which could arrest the state terror of Pavelic, Budak, and Co, who considered themselves devout Catholics. Spoke out vehemently against Communism before Communists had even taken power, fully exhonerating the clergy of complicity in war crimes and atrocities in the NDH. Yugoslav government alleged that his office coordinated Krizari or "Crusader" guerrilla operations through 1947 with Father Krunoslav Draganovic and Maks Luburic. Found guilty of treason relating to his recognition of the NDH before Yugoslav armed forces had surrendered on October 11, 1946 before exclusively Catholic judges. Sentence of hard labor commuted to house arrest. Pope Pius XII named him Cardinal in captivity. Died on December 10, 1960. Beatified by Pope John Paul II on October 3, 1998 during Papal visit to Croatia, despite requests by Jewish organizations to delay the ceremony in order for a panel of historians to determine whether Stepinac really did help significant numbers of Jews avoid murder by the Ustase. To date, all applications to recognize Alojzije Stepinac as a "Righteous Among the Nations" by Yad Vashem have been denied.

    http://www.pavelicpapers.com/documents/stepinac/index.html

    Should a man who help betray his own country to the Nazis be declared a "saint"? What does the fact that he was beatified say about the RCC's role during the Holocaust? It is also interesting that the the independent commission set up by the Vatican to investigate the Church's actions during the Holocaust specifically requested documents regarding the atrocities in Croatia and the Church's knowledge of them; these documents hadn't been "catalogued" yet according to the Church by 2002.

    Should Cardinal Stepinac become a saint under these circumstances?
  2. Subscriberno1marauder
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    27 Dec '05 04:45
    More detail is at:

    http://www.pavelicpapers.com/features/essays/psg.html

    Though "The Patron Saint of Genocide" seems a little much as a title, the essay appears well-documented and heavily footnoted.
  3. Felicific Forest
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    27 Dec '05 22:18
    Stepinac was beatified by John Paul II on October 3, 1998 in Croatia. During the celebration, the Pope described the Cardinal as a man who had the strength to oppose with his life the three great evils of our century: fascism, Nazism and communism. The book was written by Gianpaolo Mattei.

    In presenting the work, Cardinal Angelo Sodano, the Vatican Secretary of State, recalled how when he was a young priest, he anxiously followed the vicissitudes of Archbishop Stepinac, including his trial, where he sat on the bench with the accused during a farcical prosecution organized by the Yugoslavian communists. "I am sure this publication will help us to see the truth about those years of fire," said Cardinal Sodano. "The facts are more eloquent than all the arbitrary statements from those who want to muddy a man who sacrificed for all -- Catholics and Orthodox, Jews and Moslems, rich and poor, friends and enemies."

    "Sadly, a black legend has tried to hide the testimony of Cardinal Stepinac," continued the Cardinal, "as though he were responsible for the misfortune of so many men and women of his country. This persecution is not surprising, witness the calumnies unleashed after the War against Pius XII, may he rest in peace, ignoring the facts of history and twisting information to make it coincide with subjective arbitrary theses. Persecution must not surprise Christians. The Lord warned us when he said: 'the servant is not greater than his master; if they persecuted me, they will also persecute you.' " the Cardinal emphasized.

    http://www.zenit.org/english/archive/9903/ZE990309.html#item4




    http://www.hr/darko/etf/stepinac.html


    http://www.hr/darko/etf/jews.html


    http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=512
  4. Subscriberno1marauder
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    27 Dec '05 22:22
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    Stepinac was beatified by John Paul II on October 3, 1998 in Croatia. During the celebration, the Pope described the Cardinal as a man who had the strength to oppose with his life the three great evils of our century: fascism, Nazism and communism. The book was written by Gianpaolo Mattei.

    In presenting the work, Cardinal Angelo Sodano, the Vatican Secre ...[text shortened]... r/darko/etf/jews.html


    http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=512
    Yes, it's a shame a traitor to his own country and a supporter of a mass murdering, fascist regime has been so "persecuted". You are truly warped, Ivanhoe and so is the Church to beatify such a "man".
  5. Felicific Forest
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    27 Dec '05 22:311 edit
    .

    Catholic League's Annual Reports on Anti-Catholicism


    http://www.catholicleague.org/archive_of_annualreports.htm


    http://www.catholicleague.org/1998report/miscellaneous1998.htm
  6. Felicific Forest
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    27 Dec '05 23:21
    Lies about Stepinac

    Of all the news accounts regarding Pope John Paul II’s funeral and Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger’s accession to the papacy, the most interesting was the American liberal media’s attempt to once again smear the reputation of Cardinal Alojzije Stepinac


    http://www.lijepanasadomovinahrvatska.com/folder/arapoviceng_100505.htm
  7. Subscriberno1marauder
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    27 Dec '05 23:342 edits
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    Lies about Stepinac

    Of all the news accounts regarding Pope John Paul II’s funeral and Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger’s accession to the papacy, the most interesting was the American liberal media’s attempt to once again smear the reputation of Cardinal Alojzije Stepinac


    http://www.lijepanasadomovinahrvatska.com/folder/arapoviceng_100505.htm
    The article admits that he publicly supported the creation of the NDH while Yugoslavs were fighting and dying against a Nazi invasion. Thus, he was certainly guilty of treason, so the charge was hardly "trumped up". Your "saint" is lucky he didn't end up at the end of a rope, a marytr to fascism, not the RCC. His close ties to Pavelic are amply shown by the links I gave.
  8. Subscriberno1marauder
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    27 Dec '05 23:531 edit
    March 24, 1944: In a pastoral letter, Archbishop Stepinac catagorically denies accuasations that the clergy have participated in war crimes in the Independent State of Croatia. These are lies generated as "a means of destroying those people whom the Communists consider to be an an obstacle to the creation of their program."

    http://www.pavelicpapers.com/timeline/ndhtimeline.html

    The Simon Wiesenthal Center estimates that over 600,000 people were killed by the forces of the NDH during WWII. The NDH declared war on the United States the day after Germany did. The Vatican sheltered their mass murdering leader Pavelic after the war and eventually aided his escape to Argentina. He was never tried for his crimes.
  9. London
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    28 Dec '05 11:10
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    The article admits that he publicly supported the creation of the NDH while Yugoslavs were fighting and dying against a Nazi invasion. Thus, he was certainly guilty of treason, so the charge was hardly "trumped up".
    From what I read of the period, there does not appear to be a shared "Yugoslav" consciousness between the Croats and the Serbs. The Croats saw themselves as persecuted by another culture and, hence many wrongly welcomed the NDH as liberators. That might legally be treachery, but it is a whole different mindset from your garden-variety traitors.

    Not too dissimilar from what is happening in Kashmir.
  10. Donationrwingett
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    28 Dec '05 15:05
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Yes, it's a shame a traitor to his own country and a supporter of a mass murdering, fascist regime has been so "persecuted". You are truly warped, Ivanhoe and so is the Church to beatify such a "man".
    John Paul II was into quantity. The more saints, the better. John Paul II did to sainthood what Henry Ford did to the automobile: they each introduced assembly line mass production. The quality of the Pope's "saints" didn't matter nearly as much as the sheer quantity. If a few fascists get mixed in with all the rest...oh well.
  11. Subscriberno1marauder
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    28 Dec '05 19:181 edit
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    From what I read of the period, there does not appear to be a shared "Yugoslav" consciousness between the Croats and the Serbs. The Croats saw themselves as persecuted by another culture and, hence many wrongly welcomed the NDH as liberators. That might legally be treachery, but it is a whole different mindset from your garden-variety traitors.

    Not too dissimilar from what is happening in Kashmir.
    Get the facts straight: they welcomed the Nazis as liberators. The NDH was a creation of Hitler; he created a number of puppet fascist states in countries he occupied (Slovakia being another example). When your country is invaded and you support some of it becoming "independent" as your countrymen are fighting and dying in heroic resistance it's treachery of the highest order to me.

    The treachery continued during the occupation of Yugoslavia; the loyal Yugoslavs created a huge partisan army which aggressively resisted occupation throughout WWII. The Croats supplied troops to the Nazis to help them attempt to exterminate the resistance and its supporters throughout Yugoslavia, including Croatia. An estimated 1.5 million Yugoslavs died during this period. And what side was your "saint" on? The side of the Croatian government under Pavelic which makes him on the side of the Nazis. Surely this disqualifies him from sainthood.
  12. Felicific Forest
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    28 Dec '05 22:396 edits
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Get the facts straight: they welcomed the Nazis as liberators. The NDH was a creation of Hitler; he created a number of puppet fascist states in countries he occupied (Slovakia being another example). When your country is invaded and you support some of it becoming "independent" as your countrymen are fighting and dying in heroic resistance it's treacher elic which makes him on the side of the Nazis. Surely this disqualifies him from sainthood.
    You are hallucinating. You really should consider studying the period in question more carefully instead of parotting these fabricated accusations and the usual propaganda surrounding them.

    Again you are interested in accusations and propaganda, but certainly not in the actual truth.

    It is interesting to note that in many Eastern European countries, not just in Croatia, the Communists were the heirs of the German Nazi's and the different local fascists in their attempts of trying to discredit, control and destroy the Roman-Catholic Church. The liberals on their turn are the heirs of the fascists and the communists in their attempts of discrediting and pushing back the Roman-Catholic Church. The accusations on the adress of Pius XII and Cardinal Stepinac have to be placed in the context of the liberal/libertarian war against orthodox Roman-Catholic/Christian teachings. The ideological war of the "Culture of Death" against the "Culture of Life", the ideological fight of the "autonomous human subject" against the dignity of the human person, his freedom and the sanctity of life. I am convinced that after the liberals have disappeared from the ideological world stage, their heirs on their turn will accuse the Roman-Catholic Church of collaborating with their predecessors, the liberals.
  13. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    28 Dec '05 22:57
    In Croatia a kingdom was organized under the nominal rule of the absentee Italian Duke of Spoleto, with actual authority vested in Ante Pavelitch, the Poglavnik (Prime Minister), who began his administration with a ruthless persecution of the Serbian minority within the borders of the new Croatian state.

    Pavelitch, living in exile under Italian sponsorship, had been indirectly involved in the assassination of King Alexander of Yugoslavia at Marseilles in 1934. Arriving in Croatia in the wake of the Germans in 1941 with fewer than a hundred of his Ustascha, a politico-military group, similar to the Italian Blackshirts, Pavelitch

    quickly organized a political army of 15 battalions, and a Ustascha Guard of 1 infantry regiment and a cavalry squadron. Under the aegis of the Italian authorities, he also began the conscription of a national military force, which did not progress beyond eight mountain and light infantry brigades and a railroad security brigade until late in the war, when these brigades were joined with the expanded Ustascha forces to form divisions. Croatian-German "Legion" units, such as the 369th, 373d, and 392d Infantry Divisions; two SS divisions, the 13th and 23d Mountain; and additional mountain brigades and separate battalions were recruited in Croatia by the Germans draining off much of the manpower that might have gone to the Croatian forces. More potential Croatian troops were siphoned off in labor drafts or by the police, or fled to join one or another of the guerrilla groups.

    http://www.army.mil/cmh/books/wwii/antiguer-ops/AG-BALKAN.HTM#puppet

    notice the 2 SS divisions
  14. Subscriberno1marauder
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    28 Dec '05 23:02
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    You are hallucinating. You really should consider studying the period in question more carefully instead of parotting these fabricated accusations and the usual propaganda surrounding them.

    Again you are interested in accusations and propaganda, but certainly not in the actual truth.

    It is interesting to note that in many Eastern European countries, no ...[text shortened]... accuse the Roman-Catholic Church of collaborating with their predecessors, the liberals.
    Here we go again. Your paranoid delusions aside, I have studied the history of WWII very extensively. Calling someone who colloborated with and aided allies of the Nazis a "saint" and suggesting they opposed a "Culture of death" is a bit much even for you. I notice you haven't disputed a single fact I've presented; why is that, Ivanhoe?
  15. Subscriberno1marauder
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    28 Dec '05 23:152 edits
    How about this for treason, LH and support for the "Culture of Death", Ivanhoe:

    Croatia, with its own armed forces, had little success in putting down the spreading Partisan movement within its borders during late 1941. By the end of the year, additional German troops had crossed the borders of the new state into the German zone of interest in order to cooperate with the Ustascha and Croat national forces in hunting flown the Partisans in the southeastern part of the country. Resistance to the Croat troops w as intensified by their persecution of the Serbian minority. The Italian Second Army was of little help in restoring order; Italian units in the area assisting the Germans and Croats showed more interest in occupying important transportation and communication centers than in clearing Croatia of the guerrillas.

    With Serbia quiet and the guerrilla forces active in their zone of interest in Croatia, the Germans planned a large-scale operation Italian blocking forces to be brought up to the Italian side of the demarcation line. Planned for mid-January 1942, the operation would have the advantage of cold weather, inconvenient for the Germans but disastrous for the guerrillas, who lacked proper clothing and equipment for operations in the snow. Also, the 342d Infantry Division would be available, just prior to its departure for Russia.

    Well planned and typical of antiguerrilla measures of the period, the operation was conducted from 15 to 26 January, with the 342d and 718th Infantry Divisions, as well as Croatian national forces, participating. The guerrillas were estimated at 4,000, concentrated about Sarajevo and Visegrad and the area to the north. Meeting strong resistance, the Germans suffered a total of 25 dead, 131 wounded, and almost 300 cases of frostbite, against 521 guerrilla dead and 1,331 captured. Booty included 855 rifles, 22 machine guns, 4 field pieces, 600 head of livestock, and 33 draft animals. A tactical success, the operation failed to achieve its purpose when the Italian forces against which the guerrillas were to be driven did not arrive in time to prevent the escape of large numbers of the guerrillas into the Italian zone of interest in Croatia.

    Reports from German commanders who had participated indicated that the Croatian troops could perform satisfactorily only when integrated with German units, and that the Croat officers and noncommissioned officers lacked training and tactical ability. The escape of entire guerrilla units also made obvious the need for a combined command, with authority over all German, Italian, Croatian, and other forces participating. On one occasion, during the operation, Italian airmen bombed a German-held village, whereupon the Germans requested Italian air support be withdrawn. Another mistake was the assignment of Ustascha troops to areas populated mainly by Serbs. Finally, the understrength German divisions (two regiments of infantry rather than the normal three) in the "700 series" in the southeast lacked personnel and staying power for sustained operations against strong guerrilla forces. Sharp fighting at Valjevo in February caused the Germans almost 500 casualties, as against over 3,500 guerrillas killed in action or shot in reprisal. Lacking troops, it was obvious that General Kuntze would require the assistance of the Italians and Croatians if his meager forces in Croatia were to quell the disorders in the German zone of interest.

    A trip to Hitler's headquarters and to Italy was instrumental in securing approval for a combined German-Italian-Croatian operntion to clear east Bosnia. General Bader, now commanding all German forces and the administrative area in Serbia, was named task force commander, under operational control of the Italian Second Army for the period of the operation. His œorce was to consist of three Italian divisions, the German 718th Infantry Division, German units from Serbia, and Croatian national troops. Extending from 20 April to 3 May, the operation was considered a success from the German standpoint, with 168 enemy dead, 1,309 prisoners taken, and stocks of weapons, ammunition, and equipment captured. However, large numbers of guerrillas managed to escape through the Italian Units assigned to block their flight and to snake their way into the Italian zone of interest in Croatia. Task Force Bader was disbanded upon conclusion of the operation, and its commander returned to Serbia.

    Another operation, to clear west Bosnia, was scheduled for June. The task force commander, Generalmajor (Brigadier General) Friedrich Stahl, commanding the 714th Infantry Division, organized his combat elements around three German infantry battalions with artillery support and two Croatian mountain brigades. No exact figures on casualties were given, but the cost to the guerrillas w as high and the undertaking was regarded as a success by the Germans. The lack of experience and tactical ability on the part of the Croat troops were made glaringly obvious during the operation, when the two mountain brigades broke in disorder and German troops had to strengthen them

    (from Frogstomp's link)


    So "Saint" Stepanic's allies in the NDH were not only brutally suppressing the Serb minority in Croatia (including forced conversions to the RCC that Stepanic bragged about to the Vatican) but they were also providing troops to assist the Nazis against resistance forces in other parts of Yugoslavia. The Nazis regarded the assistance of the Croatians as "necessary to quell the disorders [heroic resistance] in the German sphere of control". Thus the regime Stepanic supported was an enthusiastic ally of the Nazis. Hardly "sainthood" qualifications.

    BTW, Tito, the leader of the largest Yugoslav partisan group, was a Croat and many Croatians fought bravely against the Nazis. They were not supported by "Saint" Stepanic.
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