28 Dec 05
Originally posted by no1marauderhttp://www.pavelicpapers.com/timeline/ndhtimeline.html
How about this for treason, LH and support for the "Culture of Death", Ivanhoe:
Croatia, with its own armed forces, had little success in putting down the spreading Partisan movement within its borders during late 1941. By the end of the year, additional German troops had crossed the borders of the new state into the German zone of interest in or ...[text shortened]... supported was an enthusiastic ally of the Nazis. Hardly "sainthood" qualifications.
1941
April 16: Wearing a black fascist tunic, Ante Pavelic arrives in Zagreb for the first time in twelve years and assumes command of the Independent State of Croatia (hereafter NDH, after its Serbo-Croat acronym). He is greeted by a large congregation of officials, bureaucrats, and church officials, including Archbishop Alojzije Stepinac of Zagreb, head of the Croatian Catholic Church. The Yugoslav Armed Forces have not yet surrendered and are still fighting in the field, particularly to the south in Montenegro and Macedonia and even in Dalmatia. The official surrender came on April 18.
1942
April 20: Father Franjo Rihar is arrested and sent to Jasenovac for refusing to celebrate a High Mass on the anniversary of founding of the NDH and failing to lead his congregation in a Te Deum on Ante Pavelic's birthday.
May 9: Archbishop Stepinac returns from a 12 day visit to Rome. The NDH ambassador to the Vatican writes in his dispatches that Stepinac "was in fine form and took a pugnacious attitude to all enemies of the state! He submitted to the Holy Father a nine-page type-written report. He showed it to me and I can assure you it stands for our point of view. In attacking the Serbs, Chetniks and Communists, he has found things to say which even I had not thought of."
you'd think the Saint would have been a bit punacious toward the state that arrested one of the priests for such a trivial "offense"
28 Dec 05
Originally posted by frogstompcontinuing
http://www.pavelicpapers.com/timeline/ndhtimeline.html
1941
April 16: Wearing a black fascist tunic, Ante Pavelic arrives in Zagreb for the first time in twelve years and assumes command of the Independent State of Croatia (hereafter NDH, after its Serbo-Croat acronym). He is greeted by a large congregation of officials, bureaucrats, and church offici ...[text shortened]... ious toward the state that arrested one of the priests for such a trivial "offense"
1943
Early May: Archbishop Stepinac visits the Vatican. According to the new Ustase ambassador, Stepinac "justified in part the measures used against the Jews, who in our country are the greatest defenders of crimes of this kind [ie, abortion] and the most frequent perpetrators of them."
1945
April 10: Archbishop Stepinac celebrates Mass in Zagreb in honor of the fourth anniversary of the NDH.
28 Dec 05
Originally posted by no1maraudermarauder: "I have studied the history of WWII very extensively."
Here we go again. Your paranoid delusions aside, I have studied the history of WWII very extensively. Calling someone who colloborated with and aided allies of the Nazis a "saint" and suggesting they opposed a "Culture of death" is a bit much even for you. I notice you haven't disputed a single fact I've presented; why is that, Ivanhoe?
You have ? ... then why is it you simply do not understand the difficult and very complicated political, military and diplomatic situation in the different regions of Second World War Europe and Europe and indeed the world as a whole in which the Roman-Catholic Church was operating ? Why then do you parrot the communist accusations against Cardinal Stepovac ? Why do you assume Cardinal Stepovac is guilty of collaborating with and aiding Nazi allies ?
marauder: "Calling someone who colloborated with and aided allies of the Nazis a "saint" and suggesting they opposed a "Culture of death" is a bit much even for you."
Why do you misread and misrepresent my words and claim I called "allies of the Nazi's"
opponents of a "Culture of Death" ? Why is it you always manage to make a mess of things ? Why is it you always manage to obscure and confuse things? Why do you always play the prosecuter's part and why do you simply hop to another accusation if the previous one has been proven false ?
Why is it you do not only accuse the people you talk about, but "en passant" also manage to accuse the people you are talking to ?
marauder: " I notice you haven't disputed a single fact I've presented; why is that, Ivanhoe?"
Because talking to a compulsive manipulating liar, obsessed by the urge and need to accuse and insult people every way possible is a bit too much, even for me.
29 Dec 05
Originally posted by ivanhoeYour childish personal attacks are expected and will be ignored.
[b]marauder: "I have studied the history of WWII very extensively."
You have ? ... then why is it you simply do not understand the difficult and very complicated political, military and diplomatic situation in the different regions of Second World War Europe and Europe and indeed the world as a whole in which the Roman-Catholic Church was operating ? ...[text shortened]... accuse and insult people every way possible is a bit too much, even for me.[/b]
Cardinal Stepanic joined with Pavelic in a public announcement on April 16, 1941 supporting the creation of the NDH; even the link you gave concedes that. At this time, the country of Yugoslavia was being attacked by Nazi Germany and the Yugoslavian Army was still in the field fighting and dying. Your "saint" gave open support to Nazi invaders; this is not "propaganda" it is an undisputed historical fact. He also bragged in his letters to the Vatican about the number of conversions to the RCC in Croatia under the NDH, knowing full well that many of these "conversions" were forced by the fascist Croatian regime. This is again a historical fact as the Simon Wiesenthat Center among many others acknowledges (are they Communists, Ivanhoe?). It is also a historical fact that many Croatians resisted the fascist NDH and the Nazis with valor and heroism many paying for their bravery with their lives. It is a fact that Cardinal Stepanic did not, but rather aided the NDH and the Nazis.
Is that your idea of a "saint", Ivanhoe? The 19 year old Yugoslavian peasant boy shot dead resisting the NDH and the Nazis deserves more praise than a treacherous fanatic like Stepanic.
29 Dec 05
Originally posted by no1marauderMy dog Blue deserves more praise than Stepanic, and all she did was get house-broken.
Your childish personal attacks are expected and will be ignored.
Cardinal Stepanic joined with Pavelic in a public announcement on April 16, 1941 supporting the creation of the NDH; even the link you gave concedes that. At this time, the country of Yugoslavia was being attacked by Nazi Germany and the Yugoslavian Army was still in the field fig ...[text shortened]... ing the NDH and the Nazis deserves more praise than a treacherous fanatic like Stepanic.
29 Dec 05
1 edit
The International Catholic-Jewish Historical Commission, formed by the Vatican in 1999 to study the Church's actions during the Holocaust, asked the following questions in iots preliminary report regarding the NDH and Cardinal Stepanic:
12. On 18 May 1941,Pope Pius XII received the head of the Croation fascist state, Ante Pavelic. While the Vatican had received Pavelic as an individual Catholic, not as head of state, there were political implications as a result of this reception. Before his reception, the Yugoslav minister to the Holy See brought to the Vatican's attention Pavelic's involvement in committing atrocities against the Serbs and protested the reception of Pavelic in any capacity because he was the head of an "illegitimate" puppet state.26 Subsequently, Pavelic's regime was responsible for the massacre of hundreds of thousands of Serbs, Jews, gypsies, and partisans. It is not known how the Pope reacted to these atrocities. Are there any archival materials that can illuminate this issue?
13. Many unanswered questions also surround the Archbishop of Zagreb, Aloysius Stepinac, beatified in 1999. While in 1941 he initially welcomed the creation of a Croatian state, he subsequently condemned atrocities against Serbs and Jews and established an organization to rescue Jews. Are there any archival documents or materials from the beatification process that can illuminate this matter?
http://www.jcrelations.net/en/?id=759
The Commission acknowledges that Pavelic was responsible for massacres of hundreds of thousnads of people and notes that there are many unanswered questions about Stepanic. Their request for further documents to illuminate these matters was denied as they hadn't been "catalogued yet". The degree and timing of Stepanic's "condemnations of atrocities" is a matter of scholarly debate; it is beyond question that he wrote letters to the Vatican boasting of the number of "converts" to the RCC in Croatia whern the evidence is overwhelming that he must have known that many were forced conversions. Stepanic's rabid anti-Communism and disdain for Serbs and the Eastern Orthodox faith seems to have, at the very least, severely affected his judgment.
29 Dec 05
1 edit
Originally posted by no1marauderSo, you're saying he wasn't exactly a Mother Teresa?
The International Catholic-Jewish Historical Commission, formed by the Vatican in 1999 to study the Church's actions during the Holocaust, asked the following questions in iots preliminary report regarding the NDH and Cardinal Stepanic:
12. On 18 May 1941,Pope Pius XII received the head of the Croation fascist state, Ante Pavelic. While the Vat Orthodox faith seems to have, at the very least, severely affected his judgment.
EDIT:😛 , just in case.
29 Dec 05
7 edits
Originally posted by no1maraudermarauder; "The International Catholic-Jewish Historical Commission, formed by the Vatican in 1999 to study the Church's actions during the Holocaust, .... "
The International Catholic-Jewish Historical Commission, formed by the Vatican in 1999 to study the Church's actions during the Holocaust, asked the following questions in iots preliminary report regarding the NDH and Cardinal Stepanic:
12. On 18 May 1941,Pope Pius XII received the head of the Croation fascist state, Ante Pavelic. While the Vat Orthodox faith seems to have, at the very least, severely affected his judgment.
http://www.bc.edu/research/cjl/meta-elements/texts/cjrelations/news/icjhc_preliminary_report.htm
"The International Catholic-Jewish Historical Commission (Historical Commission) is comprised of a group of three Catholic and three Jewish scholars appointed, respectively, by the Holy See’s Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews (Holy See’s Commission) and the International Jewish Committee for Interreligious Consultations (IJCIC), .... "
The project was announced in Rome in October, 1999 by Cardinal Edward I. Cassidy, President of the Holy See’s Commission and Mr. Seymour D. Reich, Chairman of IJCIC. The Historical Commission began its work with the proposal put to it by Cardinal Cassidy to examine critically the eleven volumes of archival material published by the Holy See’s Secretariat of State (external division) between 1965 and 1981, entitled Actes et Documents du Saint Siège relatifs à la seconde guerre mondiale (ADSS).
"However, a scrutiny of these volumes of Vatican documents does not put to rest significant questions about the role of the Vatican during the Holocaust."
http://www.bc.edu/research/cjl/meta-elements/texts/cjrelations/news/icjhc_preliminary_report.htm
Ivanhoe: The Commission was not formed by the Vatican on its own, but also by the International Jewish Committee for Interreligious Consultations (IJCIC). The IJCIC’s membership consists of the American Jewish Committee, Anti-Defamation League, B’nai B’rith International, World Jewish Congress, Israel Jewish Council on Interreligious Relations and representatives of the three major branches of Judaism: Orthodox Union and Rabbinical Council of America (Orthodox); Rabbinical Assembly and United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism (Conservative), and Central Conference of American Rabbis and Union of American Hebrew Congregations (Reform).
The Commision was formed to study the "Actes et Documents du Saint Siège relatifs à la seconde guerre mondiale", the ADSS.
In other words the Commission studied documents concerning the [i]Holy See and the Second World War, not the Roman-Catholic Church as such and the Second world War.
If we read further we can investigate and establish the scope of the Commissions mandate even further.
http://www.bc.edu/research/cjl/meta-elements/texts/cjrelations/news/icjhc_preliminary_report.htm
"One of our goals is to understand the actions of Pius XII and the Vatican during World War II, how they decided upon the policies they followed, and why .... "
"In discharging our mandate, we hope to establish a more secure documentary basis for analyzing the actions and policies of Pius XII and the Vatican. Our task is not to sit in judgment of the Pope and his advisors. Rather, through analysis and study of their actions, statements and letters, we hope to contribute to a more nuanced understanding of the role of the papacy during the Holocaust."
We can see that "the actions of Pius XII and the Vatican during World War II and more in particular "The Role of the Papacy during the Holocaust" was the issue studied by the Commission.[/i]
marauder: "The Commission acknowledges that Pavelic was responsible for massacres of hundreds of thousnads of people "
Pavelic was indeed responsible, but establishing this was not the duty, nor the mandate of the Commission. They did not research this issue. Hence it was not one of their conclusions. You cannot prove Pavelic's responsibility by referring to the Commission's preliminary report. That's at best scientific stupidity and at worst scientific deceit.
Anyway, what does the historic fact that Pavelic was responsible prove about Cardinal Stepinac ?
Marauder: "... and notes that there are many unanswered questions about Stepanic. Their request for further documents to illuminate these matters was denied as they hadn't been "catalogued yet".
What does the fact prove that certain documents were not catalogued ? What are you insinuating ?
As you may remember there were also disagreements on the scope of the Commissions research, its mandate.
What's more important however is the fact that the Commission was certainly not formed to investigate the role of Cardinal Stepinac. Therefore it is not ethical both to the Cardinal and the members of the Commission to accuse the Cardinal of anything, let alone pronounce him guilty because there are certain questions on the part of this Commission. It simply isn't ethical.
The Commission mentions his condemnations of atrocities against Serbs and Jews and his establishment of an organisation to rescue Jews. You manage to twist these acknowledgements to his advantage into yet more unsubstantiated accusations. Let's take a look:
marauder: "The degree and timing of Stepanic's "condemnations of atrocities" is a matter of scholarly debate; ... "
The degree and timing ..... You are insinuating something, but what ? Instead of insinuating he did something wrong, show the evidence he did it .... and tell us exactly what he did wrong.
marauder: "... it is beyond question that he wrote letters to the Vatican boasting of the number of "converts" to the RCC in Croatia whern the evidence is overwhelming that he must have known that many were forced conversions."
What exactly are you accusing him of ? .... of "boasting" ... of not knowing that the majority of these conversions were not voluntary ... or are you accusing him of lying about it, of pretending ? Please, don't insinuate but show the evidence he did something wrong. What do these letters prove ?
(By the way, can you produce these letters ? Where can we read them ?)
marauder: "Stepanic's rabid anti-Communism and disdain for Serbs and the Eastern Orthodox faith seems to have, at the very least, severely affected his judgment."
... rabid(?) anti-Communism .... disdain for Serbs and the Eastern Orthododx faith .... again accusations ... where is the proof ?
You don't have to prove he was anti-communist, because he was, but why is it "rabid" ? Where is the proof he had a "disdain" for Serbs and the Eastern Orthodox faith ?
Furthermore you write that these "qualities" seem to have affected his judgement. Is that really true or is this merely a convenient assumption, more innuendo and gossip ? Prove it.
In short: What exactly are you accusing him of ? .... and please show us the proof .... I don't want to hear more irrelevant facts, innuendo or plain gossip. Even spouting new accusations does not prove the ones you have allready uttered.
29 Dec 05
Originally posted by no1maraudermarauder: "Your "saint" gave open support to Nazi invaders; this is not "propaganda" it is an undisputed historical fact."
Your childish personal attacks are expected and will be ignored.
Cardinal Stepanic joined with Pavelic in a public announcement on April 16, 1941 supporting the creation of the NDH; even the link you gave concedes that. At this time, the country of Yugoslavia was being attacked by Nazi Germany and the Yugoslavian Army was still in the field fig ...[text shortened]... ing the NDH and the Nazis deserves more praise than a treacherous fanatic like Stepanic.
... if this is indeed an "undisputed historical fact" you must be able to prove it, instead of merely stating it.
Prove it.
29 Dec 05
1 edit
Originally posted by no1maraudermarauder: "He also bragged in his letters to the Vatican about the number of conversions to the RCC in Croatia under the NDH, knowing full well that many of these "conversions" were forced by the fascist Croatian regime. This is again a historical fact as the Simon Wiesenthat Center among many others acknowledges (are they Communists, Ivanhoe?).
Your childish personal attacks are expected and will be ignored.
Cardinal Stepanic joined with Pavelic in a public announcement on April 16, 1941 supporting the creation of the NDH; even the link you gave concedes that. At this time, the country of Yugoslavia was being attacked by Nazi Germany and the Yugoslavian Army was still in the field fig ing the NDH and the Nazis deserves more praise than a treacherous fanatic like Stepanic.
What exactly is the "historical fact" you are referring to ? ... that Stepinac sent letters to the Vatican ? ... that he bragged in those letters ? that he pretended not to know these conversions were forced ? ... or the fact that the conversions were indeed forced ?
What fact does the Simon Wiesenthal Center and all these others (who are they ?) acknowledge ? Proof please from the Simon Wiesenthal Center and those others you were referring to.
I assume that your question "Are they communists, Ivanhoe ?" is merely innuendo, masked as a question. Right ?
29 Dec 05
2 edits
Originally posted by no1maraudermarauder: "The Vatican sheltered their mass murdering leader Pavelic after the war and eventually aided his escape to Argentina."
March 24, 1944: In a pastoral letter, Archbishop Stepinac catagorically denies accuasations that the clergy have participated in war crimes in the Independent State of Croatia. These are lies generated as "a means of destroying those people whom the Communists consider to be an an obstacle to the creation of their program."
http://www.pavelicpapers.co ...[text shortened]... after the war and eventually aided his escape to Argentina. He was never tried for his crimes.
Prove it. Show the evidence instead of merely spouting the accusation ... and with "evidence" I mean evidence, not just the same accusations but now uttered by others. I want facts, you know ..... proof ... I'm sure you know what I mean since you claim to be a lawyer. ... and you have to prove that "the Vatican" or the Pope did it, not merely some priests or monks.
29 Dec 05
Originally posted by ivanhoeHonorable brethren!
marauder: "Your "saint" gave open support to Nazi invaders; this is not "propaganda" it is an undisputed historical fact."
... if this is indeed an "undisputed historical fact" you must be able to prove it, instead of merely stating it.
Prove it.
There is not one among you who did not recently witness the most significant event in the life of the Croatian people among whom we act as heralds of Christ's word. These are events that fulfilled the long dreamed of and desired ideal of our people. These are the hours when the tongue does not speak, but blood speaks by its mysterious union with the earth in which we saw the divine light, together with people from which we grew out of. Is it necessary to emphasize that even our hearts beat more lively? Nobody intelligent could condemn it, and nobody honest could resent it, because love for your own people is written with God's finger into human beings and is God's commandment! And who could resent us for this, as we spiritual shepherds are making our contribution to the national feast and fervor, when we full of deep affection and warm gratitude turn to God's Majesty? Because, as much as the course of these portentous events is complicated; as much as the factors that influence the course of events are heterogeneous, it is still easy to discern the hand of God at work. A Domino factum est istud et est mirabile in oculis nostris - "This is the Lord's doing; it is marvelous in our eyes." (Psalm 117, 23). [KJV: Psalm 118, 23]
However, as I speak to you today from this ancient mansion, in the shadow of this ancient temple that served as silent witness to our Croatian history, I do not speak to you only as a son of the Croatian people but even more as a representative of the Holy Church. I speak to you as the representative of the divine institution that grew out of the lap of infinity and which is the ending in infinity in a completely special meaning of this word. As the representative of that church, which is firmamentum et columna veritatis - "the pillar and ground of the truth" (I. Tim., 3, 15). and which was not afraid to tell the truth through my mouth, when it had to be said, though unfortunately its voice often remained a voice crying in the wilderness (John 1, 23).
Therefore by speaking to you as the representative of the Church and a shepherd of souls, I ask and invite you to strive and work with all your strength to make our Croatia the land of God, because only then we will be able perform two important tasks, which the state has to perform to the benefit of its members.
Loyal to God and to Holy Christ's Church, our Croatia will perform the elevated mission which an earthly homeland has to perform in promoting the spiritual welfare of its members. Faithful to God and to the Church, our homeland will show that it believes that the final goal of all human ambition is eternity, where there is the true eternal homeland. By respecting and protecting religious and moral values, our homeland will show that it believes, that the earthly homeland is the true mother only when it puts our arms together and teaches us "to give unto God what is God's," and that it is the true guardian of our lives only when it directs our steps in paths that lead high and when it removes discord from souls that God created for himself. But in its faith to God and to the Church, our Croatia will not only fulfil its duty of uplifting the spiritual welfare of the Croatian people, but also lay the most solid foundations for the healthy development of earthly national values and national freedom and solidity. The Church, which has observed the turns in the history of the world for two thousand years, is the witness of centuries as regnum de gente in gentem transfertur propter injustitias et injurias et contumelias et diversos dolos - "as kingdoms pass from one nation to another because of injustice and wrongdoings and disgrace and various deceits." (The Church 10, 8). Therefore we have to consider that our greatest duty in these crucial hours in the history of the Croatian people is to spiritualize our entire national being by looking toward eternity. We have to warn everywhere and teach that the holy fervor and noble enthusiasm in building the foundations of the young state of Croatia should be inspired by the fear of God and love for God's Law and His commandments, because only with God's Law, and not on the false principles of this world, will the state of Croatia be built on a solid foundation.
You should therefore readily answer my call to do elevated work for the safeguarding and progress of the Independent State of Croatia
Knowing the men who today control the destiny of the Croatian people, we are deeply convinced that they will offer our people their full understanding and help. We believe and expect that the Church in the resurrected State of Croatia will be able in full freedom to proclaim the irrefutable principles of the eternal Truth and Justice. Therefore the Church will follow the words of the Scripture: Verbum Dei non est alligatum - "The word of God is not bound" (II. Tim., 2, 9). And it shall consider its holy duty opportune, importune, arguere, increpare, obsecrare in omni patientia et doctrina et cum omni apostolica libertate - "in season, out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine" (II. Tim., 4, 2) and with all apostolic freedom. That is how it shall do and it will consider it a valuable help in the difficult work in building our dear Homeland and State of Croatia.
If the good Lord allows, may it be so. And in order for it to be so, I invite you honorable brethren priests, not to stop inciting believers entrusted to you to prayers, but to raise your arms even more at the altar of the Lord to the "Father of the Stars," "from whom each good gift and every perfect present comes down." (Jakob 1, 17). --To fill the Poglavnik of the State of Croatia with the spirit of wisdom, so that he may perform the elevated and so responsible service to the honor of God and to the salvation of the people in justice and truth; so that the Croatian nation becomes the Divine nation, loyal to Christ and his Church built from Peter's cave! However, if in the eyes of the world prayer seems a needless thing, we consider it to be more important than anything in life, for "except the Lord keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain." (Psalm 12, 1). [KJV: Psalm 127, 1]
The Church of the Lord has never been lost in phrases, but it also never failed in that persistent work, on which the foundations of a fortunate future of individuals, nations and states are being created. Show that, honorable brethren, and now fulfil your duty towards the young state of Croatia.
In light of this we determine, that on Sunday May 4th this year a solemn Te Deum should be performed in all parochial churches, to which the parochial offices should invite the local authorities and the faithful. I hope that these festivities will be performed. And if circumstances will not allow it, it should be performed on the first available day. Regarding the cathedral in Zagreb, I will determine that for you in concord with the state authorities.
In Zagreb, April 28, 1941.
Archbishop Alojzije
29 Dec 05
Originally posted by no1marauderReading your cut and paste I was wondering when Cardinal Stepinac would enter the scene. ..... he didn't.
How about this for treason, LH and support for the "Culture of Death", Ivanhoe:
Croatia, with its own armed forces, had little success in putting down the spreading Partisan movement within its borders during late 1941. By the end of the year, additional German troops had crossed the borders of the new state into the German zone of interest in or ...[text shortened]... ns fought bravely against the Nazis. They were not supported by "Saint" Stepanic.
29 Dec 05
2 edits
Originally posted by frogstompBefore I read your contribution I want to ask you to post the link where you got this letter from.
Honorable brethren!
There is not one among you who did not recently witness the most significant event in the life of the Croatian people among whom we act as heralds of Christ's word. These are events that fulfilled the long dreamed of and desired ideal of our people. These are the hours when the tongue does not speak, but blood speaks by its mysterious authorities.
In Zagreb, April 28, 1941.
Archbishop Alojzije
Furthermore I want to ask whether Archbishop Alojzije is the person we are talking about, namely Cardinal Stepinac. If not, and I assume they are not the same persons, then why do you present this letter as an answer to my question to produce the evidence for the marauder's claim that "Your "saint" gave open support to Nazi invaders; this is not "propaganda" it is an undisputed historical fact."
29 Dec 05
Originally posted by ivanhoeRead the link I gave in my first post and all your questions are answered. In fact, try reading my posts and most of your questions are answered.
[b]marauder; "The International Catholic-Jewish Historical Commission, formed by the Vatican in 1999 to study the Church's actions during the Holocaust, .... "
http://www.bc.edu/research/cjl/meta-elements/texts/cjrelations/news/icjhc_preliminary_report.htm
"The International Catholic-Jewish Historical Commission (Historical Commission) is comprised ...[text shortened]... not prove the ones you have allready uttered.[/b]