Cardinal Stepinac: Fascist Saint?

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Before I read your contribution I want to ask you to post the link where you got this letter from.

Furthermore I want to ask whether Archbishop Alojzije is the person we are talking about, namely Cardinal Stepinac. If not, and I assume they are not the same persons, then why do you present this letter as an answer to my question to produce the evidence f ...[text shortened]... port to Nazi invaders; this is not "propaganda" it is an undisputed historical fact."[/b]

http://www.pavelicpapers.com/documents/stepinac/as0001.html

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Before I read your contribution I want to ask you to post the link where you got this letter from.

Furthermore I want to ask whether Archbishop Alojzije is the person we are talking about, namely Cardinal Stepinac. If not, and I assume they are not the same persons, then why do you present this letter as an answer to my question to produce the evidence f port to Nazi invaders; this is not "propaganda" it is an undisputed historical fact."[/b]

Learn how to read. From my first post, Cardinal Stepanic:

Despite advising clergy to steer clear of politics, on April 12, 1941 paid a visit of his own accord to Slavko Kvaternik, and on April 16 to poglavnik Ante Pavelic to give NDH and Ustase regime his personal endorsement. Also broadcast his support for the NDH in a radio address to the Croatian people, all of which occured before the Royal Yugoslav Army capitulated.

So as his Yugoslav countryman were heroically resisting Nazi invaders, your "saint" was publicaly supporting the establishment of a Croatian puppet state as per Hitler's wishes. This same Croatian state provided troops to kill those who resisted against the Nazi occupiers until 1945 and your "saint" and the Catholic newspapers he controlled constantly supported both the Croatian fascists and the Nazis. Is making a public statement of this sort not giving open support to Nazi invaders?

Originally posted by no1marauder
Learn how to read. From my first post, Cardinal Stepanic:

Despite advising clergy to steer clear of politics, on April 12, 1941 paid a visit of his own accord to Slavko Kvaternik, and on April 16 to poglavnik Ante Pavelic to give NDH and Ustase regime his personal endorsement. Also broadcast his support for the NDH in a radio address to the Croa til 1945. Is making a public statement of this sort not giving open support to Nazi invaders?

marauder: "Despite advising clergy to steer clear of politics, on April 12, 1941 paid a visit of his own accord to Slavko Kvaternik, and on April 16 to poglavnik Ante Pavelic to give NDH and Ustase regime his personal endorsement."

Again you are hinting. Does this prove Cardinal Stepinac was a fascist ? How did that "personal endorsement" look like ? What exactly did it entail ? Have you got a link ? Show it to us.

marauder: " Also broadcast his support for the NDH in a radio address to the Croatian people, all of which occured before the Royal Yugoslav Army capitulated."

Show us the radio adress. Does the radio adress prove that he was a fascist ?


marauder: "Is making a public statement of this sort not giving open support to Nazi invaders?"

Then give us this public statement, this radio address, made by Cardinal Stepinac, so we can read and investigate it.

You keep repeating the accusations but fail to show the evidence.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
[b]marauder: "Despite advising clergy to steer clear of politics, on April 12, 1941 paid a visit of his own accord to Slavko Kvaternik, and on April 16 to poglavnik Ante Pavelic to give NDH and Ustase regime his personal endorsement."

Again you are hinting. Does this prove Cardinal Stepinac was a fascist ? How did that "personal endorsement" look like ...[text shortened]... and investigate it.

You keep repeating the accusations but fail to show the evidence.[/b]

lmao @ the RCC

All officials participating in the trial were Croatians and Roman Catholics. Following the conviction, the Vatican excommunicated all persons who had taken part in or were considered responsible for the prosecution of the Archbishop, on the grounds that no member of the Catholic clergy could be prosecuted without consent of the Vatican.

Originally posted by frogstomp
http://www.pavelicpapers.com/documents/stepinac/as0001.html

It is indeed the same person. Now we can ask ourselves the question whether the marauder's claim that "Your "saint" gave open support to Nazi invaders; this is not "propaganda" it is an undisputed historical fact." is indeed a historical fact.

Does this letter prove Cardinal Stepinac gave "open support to Nazi invaders" ? If the answer is yes, then where does he state this in his letter, which you gave as proof for marauder's claim ?

Originally posted by frogstomp
lmao @ the RCC

All officials participating in the trial were Croatians and Roman Catholics. Following the conviction, the Vatican excommunicated all persons who had taken part in or were considered responsible for the prosecution of the Archbishop, on the grounds that no member of the Catholic clergy could be prosecuted without consent of the Vatican.

What trial are you talking about ?

Originally posted by ivanhoe
What trial are you talking about ?

Stepinac's trial for treason.

Originally posted by frogstomp
Stepinac's trial for treason.

Whom did he betray ?

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Whom did he betray ?

The people of Yugoslavia

Originally posted by ivanhoe
It is indeed the same person. Now we can ask ourselves the question whether the marauder's claim that "Your "saint" gave open support to Nazi invaders; this is not "propaganda" it is an undisputed historical fact." is indeed a historical fact.

Does this letter prove Cardinal Stepinac gave "open support to Nazi invaders" ? If the answer is yes, the ...[text shortened]... where does he state this in his letter, which you gave as proof for marauder's claim ?

The entire letter is about the Nazi invasion, including the begining of it:

Honorable brethren!
There is not one among you who did not recently witness the most significant event in the life of the Croatian people among whom we act as heralds of Christ's word. These are events that fulfilled the long dreamed of and desired ideal of our people. These are the hours when the tongue does not speak, but blood speaks by its mysterious union with the earth in which we saw the divine light, together with people from which we grew out of. Is it necessary to emphasize that even our hearts beat more lively? Nobody intelligent could condemn it, and nobody honest could resent it, because love for your own people is written with God's finger into human beings and is God's commandment! And who could resent us for this, as we spiritual shepherds are making our contribution to the national feast and fervor, when we full of deep affection and warm gratitude turn to God's Majesty? Because, as much as the course of these portentous events is complicated; as much as the factors that influence the course of events are heterogeneous, it is still easy to discern the hand of God at work. A Domino factum est istud et est mirabile in oculis nostris - "This is the Lord's doing; it is marvelous in our eyes."


I think you are having trouble discerning the fascist past (present?) of the RCC

Originally posted by frogstomp
The people of Yugoslavia

Who were his prosecuters ?

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Who were his prosecuters ?

not the pope ! that's for sure

Originally posted by ivanhoe
[b]marauder: "Despite advising clergy to steer clear of politics, on April 12, 1941 paid a visit of his own accord to Slavko Kvaternik, and on April 16 to poglavnik Ante Pavelic to give NDH and Ustase regime his personal endorsement."

Again you are hinting. Does this prove Cardinal Stepinac was a fascist ? How did that "personal endorsement" look like and investigate it.

You keep repeating the accusations but fail to show the evidence.[/b]

LMFAO!!!! Do you deny that he made a radio broadcast supporting the establishment of the NDH while the Yugoslav Army was still resisting the Nazi invasion?? Even your own link admitted that!! I don't have the text of the radio address but that's an impossible standard for an internet chess forum. Show me the original text of the Gospels next time someone is discussing the Bible.


Here's a link that might interest you; it's the detailed charges and evidence against Stepanic from his trial for treason. His guilt is beyond doubt. http://emperors-clothes.com/croatia/stepinacfile.doc

On the basis of the evidence Archbishop Stepinac was found guilty of collaboration with the enemy and of conspiracy against the Federal Peoples Republic of Yugoslavia. The manner in which Archbishop Stepinac conducted himself during the trial should be noted. No serious attempt was made to deny the charges. The argument with which Stepinac most frequently contented himself was that he could not be held accountable for misdeeds of the lower clergy, and that in any case he was responsible only to God. With the world press in attendance at the trial, Archbishop Stepinac thus failed to take advantage of an unequalled opportunity to state his case and clear himself, if he felt able to, before mankind.

All officials participating in the trial were Croatians and Roman Catholics. Following the conviction, the Vatican excommunicated all persons who had taken part in or were considered responsible for the prosecution of the Archbishop, on the grounds that no member of the Catholic clergy could be prosecuted without consent of the Vatican.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Who were his prosecuters ?

btw attacking me , no1 or the prosecuters wont change the fact that Stepinac did say and write that Fascist-loving garbage.

Originally posted by frogstomp
The entire letter is about the Nazi invasion, including the begining of it:

Honorable brethren!
There is not one among you who did not recently witness the most significant event in the life of the Croatian people among whom we act as heralds of Christ's word. These are events that fulfilled the long dreamed of and desired ideal of our people. ...[text shortened]...

I think you are having trouble discerning the fascist past (present?) of the RCC

I think you are having trouble reading. He is not supporting any Nazi invasion. He is supporting the independence of Croatia and referring to the events, among which the Nazi-actions as follows:


Because, as much as the course of these portentous events is complicated; as much as the factors that influence the course of events are heterogeneous, it is still easy to discern the hand of God at work. A Domino factum est istud et est mirabile in oculis nostris - "This is the Lord's doing; it is marvelous in our eyes."

He supports and welcomes the Croatian independence. Nowhere, NOWHERE does he state he supports or appoves of the Nazi invasion.

You are clearly trying to fabricate some accusation. This letter does not prove Stepinac's support for a Nazi-invasion. It is certainly not an undisputed historical fact as the marauder claims in his zeal to accuse Stepinac. It is ridiculously obvious that these accusations are fabricated.