Originally posted by ivanhoeWhat you don't understand is that only no1 gives a poop that your fascist church made a fascist like Stepinac a saint. I wouldn't care if they made Musolini , or for that matter the never excommunincated Hitler one too, and would rather they showed their true colors and do so forthwith.
Marauder: "You failed to give any evidence it was a "show trial" other than newspaper clippings during the McCarthy Era."
Does it really matter ? You don't care whether it was a show-trial or not. The Cardinal was found guilty and that is what counts for you. He is guilty in your eyes because you want him to be guilty. You call yourself a lawyer ?
Mar ...[text shortened]... are ? .... of course not.
By the way, what are these "other sources" ? Any links ?
Originally posted by ivanhoeWhat the prosecutor supposedly said almost 40 years later (and you offered only statements in nationalist Croatian websites to the effect he did) isn't terribly important. There could be many reasons why someone would make such statements long after the fact. What is important is the actual evidence and even if we presume that every fact presented by the Yugoslav government (and you haven't disputed any of them) isn't true and/or has some explanation, the Cardinal's public statements are enough to have him found guilty of treason. That may be "legalistic" but that is how legal systems work.
[b]Marauder: "You failed to give any evidence it was a "show trial" other than newspaper clippings during the McCarthy Era."*)
Does it really matter ? You don't care whether it was a show-trial or not. The Cardinal was found guilty and that is what counts for you. He is guilty in your eyes because you want him to be guilty. You call yourself a lawyer ...[text shortened]... carefully and stop misrepresent the things I have brought forward in this thread.[/b]
Cardinal Stepinac had a choice; work with the fascists who were installed by the Nazis and intended to assist their patrons in every way or support the resistance. He made his choice to help allies of the greatest criminals in the 20th Century. That, IMO, disqualifies him from sainthood.
Louis Breiner, President of the American Jewish Society:
"This high church representative has been convicted as a collaborator of Nazism. We Jews are protesting against such calumnies. Since we know his past, we can say that from 1934 onwards he was always a true friend to the Jews. He did not conceal his feelings even at the time of the brutal persecutions under the Hitler regime. He was one of the few people in Europe who spoke out against the Nazi tyranny, at all hours, when it was most dangerous" (a statement released two days after the conviction of Stepinac: Bauer, 1979, p. 152).
Originally posted by ivanhoeYou've been calling names the whole thread, saying I'm "pro-communist" and an "ideological heir to the Nazis" (ironic when you are defending a Nazi supporter). So stop your crying; you are an idiot and a fanatic to say such nonsense.
[b]Marauder: "You failed to give any evidence it was a "show trial" other than newspaper clippings during the McCarthy Era."*)
Does it really matter ? You don't care whether it was a show-trial or not. The Cardinal was found guilty and that is what counts for you. He is guilty in your eyes because you want him to be guilty. You call yourself a lawyer ...[text shortened]... uments ..... oh well, that leaves us with the usual insults and manipulations ....[/b]
Cardinal Stepinac, 1940:
"Come what may in these dismal times, we will never bow to the evil which is rampant, to the false spirit of the time opposed to God. In the shadow of a looming storm threatening the whole world, I too am addressing the following words to you: Take courage and be strong in the faith which your fathers have professed for no fewer than 1300 years" (ibid. p. 200).
Originally posted by ivanhoeDo you know what logical fallacy you are committing, Ivanhoe?
Louis Breiner, President of the American Jewish Society:
"This high church representative has been convicted as a collaborator of Nazism. We Jews are protesting against such calumnies. Since we know his past, we can say that from 1934 onwards he was always a true friend to the Jews. He did not conceal his feelings even at the time of the brutal persecuti ...[text shortened]... gerous" (a statement released two days after the conviction of Stepinac: Bauer, 1979, p. 152).
Cardinal Stepinac, 1941:
"Every day we are witnessing new, ever stricter provisions which, more often than not, affect totally innocent people. That people of different nationality are denied every possibility of self-preservation and forced to display that disgraceful sign is an infringement upon humanity and morality. Moral laws apply not only to individuals, but to those in power as well. Besides, one should take into account that children, hit by these measures, will develop a sense of revenge and an inferiority complex, which will have a crucial impact on their psychological development. Do we have a right to make such an assassination attempt on human personality?" (from a protest letter to the Interior Minister, Andrija Artukovic, dated 23 May 1941, Cavalli 1947, p. 163).
Originally posted by ivanhoeBetcha he was referring to the Communists, not the Nazis and Fascists.
Cardinal Stepinac, 1940:
"Come what may in these dismal times, we will never bow to the evil which is rampant, to the false spirit of the time opposed to God. In the shadow of a looming storm threatening the whole world, I too am addressing the following words to you: Take courage and be strong in the faith which your fathers have professed for no fewer than 1300 years" (ibid. p. 200).
Originally posted by ivanhoeToo bad he kept going to NDH parades and celebrating masses for Pavelic and the other murderers rather than grabbing a gun.
Cardinal Stepinac, 1941:
"Every day we are witnessing new, ever stricter provisions which, more often than not, affect totally innocent people. That people of different nationality are denied every possibility of self-preservation and forced to display that disgraceful sign is an infringement upon humanity and morality. Moral laws apply not only to indiv ...[text shortened]... letter to the Interior Minister, Andrija Artukovic, dated 23 May 1941, Cavalli 1947, p. 163).
Cardinal Stepinac, 1942:
"Each nation and each race has the right to life and treatment worthy of man This is why the Catholic Church has always condemned, and is today condemning the injustice and acts of violence committed in the name of theories of class, race and nation The Church would have failed in her duty if she were not, true to its conviction as always, raising its voice today as well in defence of all those who are complaining of injustice" (from his homily in the Zagreb cathedral, 25 October 1942, Benigar 1974, p. 442).
Milovan Djilas:
"To honestly tell the truth, I think, and not only I, that Stepinac is a man of integrity, a firm character, whom is impossible to break. He was really unjustly convicted, but how many times has it happened in the history that just people were convicted out of political necessity?!" (Hrvatska revija, 1956, p. 202)
Archbishop Stepinac, 1946:
"Some documents have been falsified; photographs showing me with my hand raised in a Fascist salute and participating at the farewell ceremony of the Croatian legion before its departure for the Black Sea; I was not present at that ceremony, nor did I raise my hands in Fascist salute." (the contents of the only note he made during the trial in 1946, Beluhan, 1967, p. 127).