1. Felicific Forest
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    29 Dec '05 07:012 edits
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    I gave you a link to the official trial evidence. Read it and learn.
    The "evidence" of a confessed show trial ..... marauder, you are the top. You are an expert in fabriquated guilt, it is your specialty.



    Here's a link meant as an anti-dote.

    Bare in mind that the Balkan is a politically very complicated region to understand. I know one thing: You don't understand one bit of it. You don't understand the nationalism on all the sides and the idea of federalism and how this affects the developments. The below link is a Croatian nationalist site or ... well, maybe not ... You are warned. What is the truth, marauder ?


    http://www.magma.ca/~rendic/stepinac.htm



    CARDINAL ALOYSIUS STEPINAC IN LIGHT OF DOCUMENTATION


    by Tihomil Rada


    Within the scope of this Academy dedicated as always to the last remembrance of the archbishop of Zagreb Aloysius Stepinac, cardinal of the Catholic church and Croatian national hero, I will endeavour to describe briefly his historical significance and personality on the basis of the facts and attestations from that time. This profile will include the decisive moments of this life before the trial, his historical speech before the court of the communist party in Zagreb in 1946 and the repercussions of that trial in the world press, concluding with the salient facts of his life in prison up to his martyr's death on February 19th, 1960.
  2. Felicific Forest
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    29 Dec '05 07:091 edit
    http://www.magma.ca/~rendic/stepinac.htm



    ADVOCATE OF CHURCH AND FATHERLAND

    (Speech of the Archbishop of Zagreb Dr. Aloysius Stepinac from the defendant's bench in Zagreb on October 3rd and 8th, 1946)

    To all the charges laid against me here I reply that my conscience is quite clear, although the public may laugh at that. Let me say also that I have no intention of appealing the sentence on my own behalf. I am convinced that I can suffer not only mockery, contempt and denigration, but because my conscience is clear, that I am ready at any moment to die.

    The expression "the accused Stepinac" has been bandied about here a hundred times. No one is so naïve as to ignore that behind "the accused Stepinac" sits here on the defendant's bench the Archbishop of Zagreb, metropolitan of Croatia and highest primate of the Catholic Church in Yugoslavia. You yourselves have so often appealed to the clergy here accused to say that Stepinac alone is guilty for the state of the nation and the clergy in general. For it is the clergy who you accuse through me. Citizen Stepinac could not have such an influence, but only Archbishop Stepinac.

    These past seventeen months the fight against me has been waged in the press and public. For the past twelve months I have suffered as an internee in the confines of the archbishopric.

    I am charged with having performed the baptism of Serbs. This is a misrepresentation of the facts for there is no need to baptize once more one who has been baptized already. The question here is rather one of conversion. I will not speak at length about that but will say that my conscience is clear and that history will bear me out. The fact is that I had to relocated the priest because the Serbian Orthodox population for hesitating to convert them to Catholicism menaced them with death. The fact is that during the war the Church had to compromise in order to render a favour to the Serbian nation with the intention of protecting it as best it could.

    Mr. President has shown me a copy of a letter as proof that I was looking for the abandoned Orthodox (formerly Pauline) monastery in Orahovica to intern temporarily Trappists banished by the Germans from Reichenburg. I considered it my holy duty to help my Slovene brethren ousted by the Germans to obtain temporary shelter.

    A more difficult case is my accusation as chaplain general. Mr. President asked me whether I did not consider it treason to the Yugoslavian state to retain that position under the government of the NDH. I was also chaplain general in the first Yugoslavia. For eight to ten years I tried to solve the question concerning my post as chaplain general, but it came to no definite solution. The question was finally solved in Yugoslavia with a concordat that involved many difficulties and although solemnly ratified in parliament carried no effect.

    When the war between Yugoslavia and Germany was over I had to administer spiritual aid to the remnants of the Catholic soldiers of the former Yugoslavian army and of the newly created NDH. Although the state collapsed, the army still remained and we had to face the situation.

    I was persona non grate both to the Germans and to the "ustase", being neither "ustase" nor under oath to them, as were your officials here now in court. The Croatian nation has declared itself by plebiscite in favour of a Croatian state. I would be a scoundrel should I ignore the pulse of the Croatian nation which was deprived of its rights in old Yugoslavia. I said that Croats were forbidden to be promoted in the army or enter into diplomatic corps unless they changed their religion or married an Orthodox woman. This is the factual basis and the background of my epistles and sermons. The rights, independence and liberty of the Croatian nation as I have outlined them are all in accordance with the fundamental principles of the Allies laid down at the Yalta Conference and in the Atlantic Charter. If according to these conclusions all nations have the right of their independence, why should the Croatian nation alone be deprived? The Holy See has so often emphasized that small nations and national minorities have the right to be free. Why should the Catholic bishop and metropolitan not say anything about that? If we must fail we will go down in the performance of our duty.

    Do not think that the Croatian nation is satisfied with this trial. Still less can you pretend that the Croatian nation would not side with me. Should it have the opportunity to declare itself? I respect and will respect the will of my nation.

    You accuse me of being an enemy of the state and of the people's authority. Today I acknowledge your authority. To which authority was I responsible before this? I must say it again that you are my authority only from May 8th, 1945 and before that no authority at all. Where can one in this world serve two master - you in the woods or they in Zagreb? Do I have to obey the government of the putschist Simovic (as you call him) abroad in London, or that one in Jerusalem; yours in the woods or this one in Zagreb? Is it possible to serve two masters? It corresponds neither to Catholic moral nor to international law and human rights. We could not ignore the authority here although it was "ustase". It was a fait accompli. You can call me to account only beginning with May 8th, 1945.

    Regarding my terrorist activities you have no proof nor will anyone believe you. If Erik Lisak, Lela Sopianec and others came to me under assumed names, or if I received a letter, which I was unable to decipher, and if it is an offence that certain people came to me, I will accept the sentence with equanimity. If I have given a passport to Father Maric, I reproach myself in no way. My conscience is clear because I could still go to the other world with equanimity. Whether you believe me or not makes no difference to me. The accused Archbishop of Zagreb is ready not only to suffer but also even to die for his convictions. Bakaric, the president of the Croatian republic himself said to Father Milanovic, "We are convinced that the archbishop is behind these actions but we can not prove anything whatsoever!" For me this tells all.

    And now what is the real conflict and why has it not come to a peaceful solution? The state prosecutore has so often stated that nowhere is there so much freedom of conscience as here in this state. Allow me to enumerate some facts from which one can conclude the contrary. I say it before all of you: the People's Liberation Movement has massacred 260 to 270 priests. In no civilized state in the world would so many priests be punished in such a ways for offences imputed to them. There is for example the case of the priest Bürger in Slatina, admittedly a member of the Kulturbund, on whom you passed the death sentence and whom you executed for having removed the sacred vessels. Yet this, as dean of the church in Vocin, was his sacred duty. You cannot content with the sentencing him to serve a term of eight years in jail. I say it again: in no other civilized state would the sentence have been met out in this manner. Father Povoljnak was executed without trial, like a dog in the street. The same methods were used against certain accused nuns. In no other civilized state would they be punished with death, but at the very most imprisonment. You have committed a fatal error in massacring priests. The people will not forget it. Here is your freedom such as it is.

    Our Catholic schools built with so many sacrifices have been taken away from us. All activity in our seminaries has been thwarted. Had I not received from America seven wagonloads of provisions it would not be possible to start work this year. These are the children of our poor peasant people. You confiscated all our school property by force. You did nothing less than the Gestapo that confiscated all the property of the seminary in Mokricema. The Holy See issued many encyclicals concerning social reform. You ought to cooperate with the Holy See.

    Our orphanages have been shut down. Our printing presses have been destroyed and I do not know where to find any. You have so persistently harried our press that it no longer exists. Is it not an outright scandal to say that the church is nowhere so free as here? The Dominicans have sent to press a holy booklet that I have spent 75,000 dinars to translate from French. When the booklet was printed only a few copies were turned out and they could not be obtained. How much wrong does this constitute? Is this the freedom of the press? The Society of St. Jerome has been disbanded and no longer functions. It is a grave offence for a nation to treat thus our major and oldest cultural institution. You have reproached me with the Caritas. Yet I say here that the Caritas has benefited greatly our people and your children as well.

    Then there is the question of the catechism. You have decided in accordance with your doctrine that in the higher classes of our secondary schools catechism is a forbidden subject and in the lower classes it is an option. How could you give small children who are still minors such a choice as to decide themselves for catechism? How can you forbid those in higher grades, who already have the right to vote, freedom of choice as regards to catechism in schools?

    Our Catholic hospitals run by nuns have so much trouble. Against the will and great majority of the people you have introduced civil marriage. Why did you not have a referendum on this matter? In the United States where the republic is more tolerant, this is acceptable. There the choice between civil and ecclesiastical marriage is up to the individual. We do not oppose civil control of marriage to a certain degree. Yet our people are indignant that they must go first to the civil authority and only after that to the church to be married. If you have asked for our counsel, we would have made a suggest...
  3. Felicific Forest
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    ........................... If you have asked for our counsel, we would have made a suggestion on this matter.

    Priests in the province of Backa have had some of their institutions nationalized. Some churches in Split were once, I do not know if they still are, used as storehouses. Church property has been confiscated without the permission of the Holy See. You saw that the people did not like to be allotted lands according to your agrarian reform.

    But the question of finances is the least of our problems. The crux of the matter lies elsewhere. No priest or bishop today is sure of his life, day or night. Young people on the instigation of certain agents attacked Bishop Srebrenic in Susak. For three hours he was molested and otherwise maltreated in his room while your police and agents only looked on. And I myself had such an experience in Zapresic where I was stoned and menaced with revolvers. Bishop Lach crossed the Drava to go to a confirmation, but was arrested and sent back across the Drava to be detained the whole night in jail in Koprivnica. Even your own men who were in the woods with you came to me and declared, "This is shameful treatment. We will protest to the authorities". Bishop Buric had the windows in his home shattered by stones while he was away at a confirmation. Bishop Pusic, as I hear, was these days assaulted with rotten apples and eggs.

    We consider this freedom an illusion and will not be deprived of our rights like slaves. We will fight for our rights in this state by every legal means.

    Here are three or four instances of your "freedom" to show only why we are fighting. In the schools texts you officially declared contrary to all proofs in history that Jesus Christ did not exist. You know that Jesus Christ is God! For him we are ready to die! Yet today your doctrine is that he did not exist at all. If any professor should dare to contradict this he would be dismissed from school. I say, Mr. Public Prosecutor, that under these circumstances the church is not free, but will soon be eradicated.

    Christ is the foundation of Christianity. You are interceding on behalf of Orthodox Serbs. I ask you, how do you imagine Orthodoxy without Christ? How do you imagine the Catholic Church without Christ? This is absurd.

    In the school texts you state that Our Lady was a harlot. Do you not realize that for both Catholicism and Orthodoxy Our Lady is of the holiest conception?

    You maintain, and this is your official doctrine, that man has come from the apes. Perhaps some people accept this. But what is your authority for this? No scientist of any international reputation recognizes this today.

    According to your concepts materialism is the only scientific system. This means that God and Christianity have no validity. If there is nothing else but matter then you can bid good-bye to freedom as well. One of you men in a high position has said: "There is no man in this state whom we cannot bring to trial and sentence." You indict us illegally, casting us in the role of criminals and friends of terrorists. But I say that not all criminal deeds in the former NDH were the work of the Home Guard and the "ustase". It was not easy sailing for the church. It had to go through many difficulties.

    Let no one think that I will make war on the regime. But the present authority must enter into discussion with the Holy See. The church cannot be dictated to, but is not against reaching agreements by honourable means. It is possible. Then bishops will know their duties and will not need to find fault with certain priests for certain delinquencies committed, as has been the case so far.

    Finally let me say several words on the communist party, my real accuser. If one thinks that we took our present stand on account of materialistic considerations, he is wrong. We remain firm for all to see, even after we have been impoverished. We are not opposed to the notion that the workers obtain more rights in the factories, because it is in the spirit of papal encyclicals. Nor do we have anything against reform. But you who are supporters of Communism must allow us also the right to confess and propagate our doctrines, seeing that you are free to spread and promote materialism. Catholics have die and will die for those rights.

    I conclude that one can come to an understanding through good will, but the initiative must come for the present day authority in the state. Neither the episcopate nor I can mediate in bringing about fundamental agreements, but only the state and the Holy See.

    As far as I am concerned, in this trial I do not look for mercy. My conscience is clear.

    (End of speech)
  4. Standard memberno1marauder
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    29 Dec '05 07:231 edit
    Goering gave a nice speech at Nuremberg; why don't you cut and paste that too?
  5. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    29 Dec '05 07:271 edit
    wow,,, does he ever sound guilty to me !!!

    btw windbaggery doesnt prove anything except he was a blowhard fascist.
  6. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    29 Dec '05 07:33
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    ........................... If you have asked for our counsel, we would have made a suggestion on this matter.

    Priests in the province of Backa have had some of their institutions nationalized. Some churches in Split were once, I do not know if they still are, used as storehouses. Church property has been confiscated without the permission of the Holy See ...[text shortened]... erned, in this trial I do not look for mercy. My conscience is clear.

    (End of speech)
    Guilty as charged

    (end of story)
  7. Felicific Forest
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    29 Dec '05 08:282 edits
    Originally posted by no1marauder
    Goering gave a nice speech at Nuremberg; why don't you cut and paste that too?
    As I stated before, the liberals are the ideological heirs of the fascists and the communists. You are now carrying the torch of enmity and hostility towards the Roman-Catholic Church and you show the attitude of arrogance, resentment and hatred that goes with it. You will not cease to fight and accuse the Roman-Catholic Church because you know it is your natural ideological ennemy. You, same as the fascists and the communists deny certain rights of the human person, the Sanctity of Life and the existence of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It mustn't come as a surprise to you, same as the fascists and the communists, you oppose accuse and fight the Jewish people, witnesses of the existence of the one and only true God.

    The New York Times of October 13th, 1946 writes:

    "The trial of Archbishop Stepinac was a purely political one with the outcome determined in advance. The trial and sentence of this Croatian prelate are in contradiction with the Yugoslavia's pledge that it will respect human rights and the fundamental liberties of all without reference to race, sex, language and creed. Archbishop Stepinac was sentenced and will be incarcerated as part of the campaign against his church, guilty only of being the enemy of Communism."


    You continue the attacks and the campaign against Stepinac's Church, because the Roman-Catholic Church is guilty, guilty of being the ennemy of todays liberalism/libertarianism, the most recent branch on the tree of which God forbade man to eat.
  8. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    29 Dec '05 08:31
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    liberalism/libertarianism, the most recent branch on the tree of which God forbade man to eat.
    That tree--was it shaped like a phallus?
  9. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    29 Dec '05 08:57
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    Stepinac was beatified by John Paul II on October 3, 1998 in Croatia.
    Just out of interest, what miracles have been attributed to Stepinac's intercession?
  10. Felicific Forest
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    29 Dec '05 09:00
    http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=513


    "It is perfectly possible to believe that Stepinac may at times have made misjudgments during the turbulent and terrible war years, without for that reason doubting his personal holiness. On the other hand, the forthcoming beatification is a direct challenge to the black legend circulated in Croatia about the Vatican's role during the Second World War. And nine years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, seven years after the collapse of Yugoslavia, this is still a subject about which Western liberal opinion parrots the outrageous slanders devised by Yugoslav Communism."
  11. Felicific Forest
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    29 Dec '05 09:23
    The "Pavelic Papers" site:

    http://www.pavelicpapers.com/misc/about.html

    "This site's contributors are not motivated by an imaginary desire to "punish" the Croatian people, anymore than a Holocaust scholar feels an irrational need to punish his German subjects. Our sole intention is to cast light on what has in the past been a subject sorely in need of exposure, exploration, research and remembrance."

    .... an imaginary desire to "punish" ...... isn't that remarkable, marauder ?
  12. Standard memberDavid C
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    29 Dec '05 09:30
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    That tree--was it shaped like a phallus?
    Possibly. I'll bet there were reindeer there, though, and I have a pretty good idea what "fruit" it bore. 😵
  13. Standard memberno1marauder
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    29 Dec '05 17:53
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    The "Pavelic Papers" site:

    http://www.pavelicpapers.com/misc/about.html

    "This site's contributors are not motivated by an imaginary desire to "punish" the Croatian people, anymore than a Holocaust scholar feels an irrational need to punish his German subjects. Our sole intention is to cast light on what has in the past been a subject sorely in need ...[text shortened]... nce."

    .... an imaginary desire to "punish" ...... isn't that remarkable, marauder ?
    It's remarkable that you're soooooooooooo stupid that you can't understand what they are saying. It's also remarkable but predictable that you have managed to turn this discussion into another rant about the imaginary persecution of the RCC. The millions of Yugoslavs who actually resisted the Nazis and NDH rather than supporting them like your "saint" don't count; I guess they were pro-Communist conspirators against the Church, too.
  14. Standard memberno1marauder
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    29 Dec '05 17:551 edit
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=513


    "It is perfectly possible to believe that Stepinac may at times have made misjudgments during the turbulent and terrible war years, without for that reason doubting his personal holiness. On the other hand, the forthcoming beatification is a direct challenge to the black legend circulated in Cr h Western liberal opinion parrots the outrageous slanders devised by Yugoslav Communism[/i]."
    LMFAO!! Yes, it's certainly a minor "misjudgment" to support Nazi invaders but that in no way reduces his "personal holiness".🙄
  15. Standard memberno1marauder
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    29 Dec '05 17:56
    Originally posted by ivanhoe
    As I stated before, the liberals are the ideological heirs of the fascists and the communists. You are now carrying the torch of enmity and hostility towards the Roman-Catholic Church and you show the attitude of arrogance, resentment and hatred that goes with it. You will not cease to fight and accuse the Roman-Catholic Church because you know it is your na ...[text shortened]... eralism/libertarianism, the most recent branch on the tree of which God forbade man to eat.
    Do you really believe such crap?
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