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Spirituality

Spirituality

  1. Standard member vivify
    rain
    26 Mar '18 02:16
    Do any Christians disagree that Catholicism is full of doctrines that run contrary to the Bible?

    Contrary to the bible, (all have sinned) they believe Mary was born and remained sinless. They also believe their church is the final authority, even over the bible. That's why they got away with selling a "get out of Purgatory free card", otherwise known as an indulgence.

    And that's far from a full list. The Catholic church doesn't follow the bible, they follow their own doctrines. Agree or disagree?
  2. 26 Mar '18 02:40
    Originally posted by @vivify
    Do any Christians disagree that Catholicism is full of doctrines that run contrary to the Bible?

    Contrary to the bible, (all have sinned) they believe Mary was born and remained sinless. They also believe their church is the final authority, even over the bible. That's why they got away with selling a "get out of Purgatory free card", otherwise known as ...[text shortened]... e Catholic church doesn't follow the bible, they follow their own doctrines. Agree or disagree?
    I am not a Catholic. However, I have many beliefs that are closer to Catholicism than Protestantism by virtue of my Orthodoxy.

    So, for instance, you are right that the doctrine about Mary is excessive. We do not accept that Mary was sinless nor do we accept the Immaculate Conception of Mary. However, we do believe that Mary was an extremely holy woman -- indeed, the holiest among all women ever born and to be born, and that Mary was thus likely superior to all men but the God-man. However, she did commit sin, and the idea that she did not (or that she was conceived immaculately) is wrong as well.

    Furthermore, as an Orthodox believer I reject the concept of Original Sin but I accept the gist of it through the concept of Ancestral Sin...

    I agree with the basic gist that Catholicism has overstepped its bounds doctrinally but I would insist that these doctrines aren't entirely without merit, and that the Protestant reaction to them is often an exaggeration that has its own flaws.

    Furthermore... I would point out that the Indulgences issue isn't quite like that.

    Purchasing an indulgence was thought of as being a form of mortification or penance. So, for instance, if your dad cheated on your mom and to make up for it he went and lived in the woods for a year in total solitude & shame, we would probably say, "Wow, OK, that is some strong penance." Likewise, if your father, who was a drunkard, ended selling several of his antique cars that he lvoed and donating all of the proceeds to an alcohol recovery service or the victims of drunk driving, that would also appear to be a large penance...

    So if some guy sacrificed half of his excess income in a donation to the Church as a form of penance... you get the point.

    OF COURSE, this was abused and it isn't doctrinal, and even the concept of purgatory isn't solidly establsihed in the Bible... We do not accept purgatory in Orthodoxy... But, it is important to not just throw Catholicism under the bus.

    I would agree that catholicism is not the true Church of God, and that it has erroneous dogma, but I don't actually want to fan the flames of conflict and I would rather stand side by side with Catholics in winning souls for Christ than concentrate on our differences. Same with protestants.
  3. Standard member wolfgang59
    Infidel
    26 Mar '18 04:13
    Originally posted by @philokalia
    I would agree that [b]catholicism is not the true Church of God,
    But your God put up with it for 1500 years didn't he?
  4. Subscriber Suzianne
    Misfit Queen
    26 Mar '18 04:35
    I agree that the papacy has too much power, and I agree that their doctrine has some serious flaws, and that it is mostly a religion of men (humans, as opposed to divine, if any religion can claim thus) and therefore errors are made.

    But as Jacob said, they are still Christians, with firm and devout believers among them, and I would rather stand with them for Christ than to taint the cause of Christianity by opposing those who are devoted to Him.
  5. Subscriber Suzianne
    Misfit Queen
    26 Mar '18 04:36
    Originally posted by @wolfgang59
    But your God put up with it for 1500 years didn't he?
    Please clarify what you mean.

    "Put up with" what, exactly, and for which 1500 years?
  6. 26 Mar '18 05:59
    Originally posted by @wolfgang59
    But your God put up with it for 1500 years didn't he?
    Orthodoxy is as old as Catholicism and it could be argued that it is older because the ideas that it advocates predate the schismatic ideas of Catholicism.
  7. Subscriber Rajk999
    Enjoying
    26 Mar '18 11:32 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by @vivify
    Do any Christians disagree that Catholicism is full of doctrines that run contrary to the Bible?

    Contrary to the bible, (all have sinned) they believe Mary was born and remained sinless. They also believe their church is the final authority, even over the bible. That's why they got away with selling a "get out of Purgatory free card", otherwise known as ...[text shortened]... e Catholic church doesn't follow the bible, they follow their own doctrines. Agree or disagree?
    Im no fan of Catholicism but. consider this:

    How does one enter the Kingdom of God?
    Jesus said : Love God + Love your neighbor as yourself.
    This is Faith + Works.
    Catholics preach the doctrine of Chrsit
    Many dont.
    End of story.

    PS the concept of purgatory is in the Bible.
    The authority to make decisions pertaining to these things was given to the church
  8. Subscriber karoly aczel
    Happy Chappie
    27 Mar '18 10:42
    Originally posted by @vivify
    Do any Christians disagree that Catholicism is full of doctrines that run contrary to the Bible?

    Contrary to the bible, (all have sinned) they believe Mary was born and remained sinless. They also believe their church is the final authority, even over the bible. That's why they got away with selling a "get out of Purgatory free card", otherwise known as ...[text shortened]... e Catholic church doesn't follow the bible, they follow their own doctrines. Agree or disagree?
    Any church that expects you to pay is not a church of jc
  9. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    It's about respect
    30 Mar '18 02:42 / 3 edits
    Originally posted by @vivify
    Do any Christians disagree that Catholicism is full of doctrines that run contrary to the Bible?

    Contrary to the bible, (all have sinned) they believe Mary was born and remained sinless. They also believe their church is the final authority, even over the bible. That's why they got away with selling a "get out of Purgatory free card", otherwise known as ...[text shortened]... e Catholic church doesn't follow the bible, they follow their own doctrines. Agree or disagree?
    How can someone full of God's grace be a sinner? You haven't addressed the Biblical passages I quoted in Debates. The idea that Mary was sinless is entirely Biblical. I gave you the passages that explain why. But you insist on ignoring what I wrote before and insisting that this idea is non-Biblical.

    you need to explain...why Peter, the first Bishop of Rome was NOT the rock upon which Christ’s Church was formed. What do Matthew 16:18, Luke 1:28 and Romans 6:14 mean to you who are captive to bizarre ideas that are based in German heresy?


    How can you think any church which is not led by the Bishop of Rome is consistent with Matthew 16:18-19?
  10. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    It's about respect
    30 Mar '18 03:01
    Originally posted by @philokalia
    Orthodoxy is as old as Catholicism and it could be argued that it is older because the ideas that it advocates predate the schismatic ideas of Catholicism.
    Catholicism is not "schismatic". Even the Orthodox recognize the primacy of the Bishop of Rome.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravenna_Document
  11. 30 Mar '18 15:12 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @vivify
    Do any Christians disagree that Catholicism is full of doctrines that run contrary to the Bible?

    Contrary to the bible, (all have sinned) they believe Mary was born and remained sinless. They also believe their church is the final authority, even over the bible. That's why they got away with selling a "get out of Purgatory free card", otherwise known as ...[text shortened]... e Catholic church doesn't follow the bible, they follow their own doctrines. Agree or disagree?
    "Contrary to the bible, (all have sinned) they believe Mary was born and remained sinless."

    Could someone explain this about Mary: Is the sin she is supposedly free of "original sin"? If so that condition would be a decision made by God, an exception, if you will. Of course she could be free of sins she commits later in life, since all such later sins are freely committed, that free choice being the nature of sin, excepting original sin.

    Or is the concept of original sine heretical?
  12. 30 Mar '18 15:29
    Originally posted by @karoly-aczel
    Any church that expects you to pay is not a church of jc
    Matthew 10
    8 ...freely you received, freely give
  13. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    It's about respect
    30 Mar '18 16:57 / 1 edit
    Originally posted by @js357
    "Contrary to the bible, (all have sinned) they believe Mary was born and remained sinless."

    Could someone explain this about Mary: Is the sin she is supposedly free of "original sin"? If so that condition would be a decision made by God, an exception, if you will. Of course she could be free of sins she commits later in life, since all such later sins are ...[text shortened]... eing the nature of sin, excepting original sin.

    Or is the concept of original sine heretical?
    https://www.catholic.com/tract/immaculate-conception-and-assumption

    The Immaculate Conception means that Mary, whose conception was brought about the normal way, was conceived without original sin or its stain—that’s what "immaculate" means: without stain. The essence of original sin consists in the deprivation of sanctifying grace, and its stain is a corrupt nature. Mary was preserved from these defects by God’s grace; from the first instant of her existence she was in the state of sanctifying grace and was free from the corrupt nature original sin brings.

    When discussing the Immaculate Conception, an implicit reference may be found in the angel’s greeting to Mary. The angel Gabriel said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28). The phrase "full of grace" is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. It therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.

    The traditional translation, "full of grace," is better than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of "highly favored daughter." Mary was indeed a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for "daughter" ). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind.Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning "to fill or endow with grace." Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit. In fact, Catholics hold, it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence.
  14. Subscriber AThousandYoung
    It's about respect
    30 Mar '18 17:01 / 1 edit
    I find it very funny to see Protestants calling Catholics heretics. What is a heretic to a Protestant? Does a Baptist think a Pentacostal is a heretic?

    https://www.thefreedictionary.com/heresy

    her·e·sy (hĕr′ĭ-sē)
    n. pl. her·e·sies
    1.
    a. An opinion or a doctrine at variance with established religious beliefs, especially dissension from or denial of Roman Catholic dogma by a professed believer or baptized church member.
    b. Adherence to such dissenting opinion or doctrine.
  15. 30 Mar '18 17:15 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by @athousandyoung
    I find it very funny to see Protestants calling Catholics heretics. What is a heretic to a Protestant? Does a Baptist think a Pentacostal is a heretic?

    https://www.thefreedictionary.com/heresy

    her·e·sy (hĕr′ĭ-sē)
    n. pl. her·e·sies
    1.
    a. An opinion or a doctrine at variance with established religious beliefs, especially dissension ...[text shortened]... eliever or baptized church member.
    b. Adherence to such dissenting opinion or doctrine.
    The "logic" for many protestants seems to be:
    Given:
    1) My interpretation of the Bible is valid
    2) The Bible is the inerrant word of God
    3) Deviation from the inerrant word of God is heresy

    Therefore:
    1) My interpretation of the Bible is the inerrant word of God
    2) Deviation from my interpretation of the Bible is heresy

    Definition of heresy
    plural heresies
    1a : adherence to a religious opinion contrary to church dogma (see dogma 2) 
    • They were accused of heresy.
    b : denial of a revealed truth by a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church
    c : an opinion or doctrine contrary to church dogma

    2 a : dissent or deviation from a dominant theory, opinion, or practice To disagree with the party leadership was heresy.
    b : an opinion, doctrine, or practice contrary to the truth or to generally accepted beliefs or standards

    Pasted from <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/heresy>