1. Standard memberRagnorak
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    06 Jun '07 17:14
    Ireland is a nation of drinkers. It is also a nation of Catholics.

    For centuries man has pondered why the Irish drink so much. I think I may have an answer.

    Since birth, every Irish child has had to go to a cult meeting, whereby a man in a fancy dress tells us how good it is to drink alcohol. He also shows us how to consume alcohol.

    Are there any other cults which shove alcohol consumption (or any other highly addictive, highly destructive drugs) down the throats of children on a weekly basis? Can we assume that the conundrum of the alcoholic Irish has been solved?

    I think the Catholic church's promotion of cross dressing/cannabilism (body of Christ. Munch)/Vampirism (Blood of christ. Slurp) should be reserved for another thread, so please try to stay on topic.

    Catholicism's history of child abuse and promotion of illiteracy and use of slave labour are well proven, and require no further discussion.

    Thanks,

    D
  2. Standard memberjoneschr
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    06 Jun '07 18:09
    You make it sound like such a bad thing.
  3. Cape Town
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    07 Jun '07 08:08
    Originally posted by Ragnorak
    Are there any other cults which shove alcohol consumption (or any other highly addictive, highly destructive drugs) down the throats of children on a weekly basis? Can we assume that the conundrum of the alcoholic Irish has been solved?
    I thought that young children did not take communion. What age does it start at?
    I don't know about children, but I believe that Rastafarianism encourages the use of cannabis.
  4. tinyurl.com/ywohm
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    07 Jun '07 10:22
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I thought that young children did not take communion. What age does it start at?
    I don't know about children, but I believe that Rastafarianism encourages the use of cannabis.
    They are generally between seven and nine, depending on where they live.

    Watching adults reverently take one sip from a cup is quite different from watching television commercials and the adults and teens around them bragging about alcohol and making guzzling and being wasted look cool.
  5. Cape Town
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    07 Jun '07 10:45
    Originally posted by pawnhandler
    They are generally between seven and nine, depending on where they live.

    Watching adults reverently take one sip from a cup is quite different from watching television commercials and the adults and teens around them bragging about alcohol and making guzzling and being wasted look cool.
    In Zambia, advertising cigarettes in newspapers or on TV was banned for a long time. I think advertising alcohol was too. I think that has changed now though.

    Ragnoroks complaint though it that Irish adults are heavy drinkers. Surely if that is a real problem then why not try to discourage alcohol use the same way that tobacco use is being discouraged world wide.
  6. tinyurl.com/ywohm
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    07 Jun '07 11:22
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    In Zambia, advertising cigarettes in newspapers or on TV was banned for a long time. I think advertising alcohol was too. I think that has changed now though.

    Ragnoroks complaint though it that Irish adults are heavy drinkers. Surely if that is a real problem then why not try to discourage alcohol use the same way that tobacco use is being discouraged world wide.
    If eliminating wine in all church services would eliminate alcoholism, I'd be all for it. If wine in church services was the gateway to alcoholism, than alcoholism would be rampant in countries with large Catholic populations but non-existent in countries which had the same drinking laws but didn't have Catholics. It would also be more likely that the majority of AA members would be Catholics or former Catholics.

    (I'm not really ignoring your stance on discouraging alcohol use but simply postponing a response at the moment, partially because it would involve rethinking my position on AThousandYoung's belief in his right to smoke pot.)
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    07 Jun '07 11:50
    Whatever anyone may have against the Catholic church, I'd have expected alcoholism to be low down on the list. I'm an Irish Catholic by birth, but now I'm just Irish. Still went throught he whole process of communion though, and I think it's safe to say that the Catholic church has not really affected my drinking at all (for the record I don't drink very much). A sip of wine once a week is no where near enough to cause addiction or any damage at all. In terms of the link between being Irish and alcoholic, I'm sure there are socail reasons which I'll look into but I'd say its difficult to pin the evolution of a particular culture on any one factor.

    Another point that may interest you was that the Catholic church in Ireland has traditionally taken a harsh stand on alcohol. I know that around 40 years ago at my mothers school, the nuns made everyone make a plege that they would never drink. The country was pretty much divided between those who drank excessivly (e.g. abusinve husbands) and those who abhored alchol as the work of the devil (e.g abused wifes + the church). There was pretty much no one in between, generally speaking.

    If you look at it from a Catholic perspective, you drink the wine because Jesus did, and the alcoholic nature of the drink is effectively ignored.
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    07 Jun '07 12:46
    Originally posted by Jake Ellison
    Whatever anyone may have against the Catholic church, I'd have expected alcoholism to be low down on the list. I'm an Irish Catholic by birth, but now I'm just Irish. Still went throught he whole process of communion though, and I think it's safe to say that the Catholic church has not really affected my drinking at all (for the record I don't drink ver ...[text shortened]... he wine because Jesus did, and the alcoholic nature of the drink is effectively ignored.
    I thought the Irish were meant to be funny.
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    07 Jun '07 13:01
    Originally posted by Starrman
    I thought the Irish were meant to be funny.
    I've lived in England for pretty much all my life. Sorry...
  10. Felicific Forest
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    07 Jun '07 13:08
    Originally posted by Jake Ellison
    I've lived in England for pretty much all my life. Sorry...
    Touché ..... 😀
  11. Cape Town
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    07 Jun '07 13:16
    Originally posted by pawnhandler
    If wine in church services was the gateway to alcoholism, than alcoholism would be rampant in countries with large Catholic populations but non-existent in countries which had the same drinking laws but didn't have Catholics. It would also be more likely that the majority of AA members would be Catholics or former Catholics.
    Anglicans also have communion so they should be included in the stats.

    I do think that communion in itself does not cause alcoholism but it does make it hard for both Church and political leaders to speak out against alcohol if it is a centre point of the Church service. I doubt if there is a sound theological case against using orange juice or some other non-alcoholic beverage.

    I do know that the Muslims I have met do not drink at all due to their religion and go even further in that they are not supposed to get involved in any way with any business that produces or sells alcohol.
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    07 Jun '07 16:581 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead

    I do think that communion in itself does not cause alcoholism but it does make it hard for both Church and political leaders to speak out against alcohol if it is a centre point of the Church service. I doubt if there is a sound theological case against using orange juice or some other non-alcoholic beverage.
    Since when was religion rational or 'sound'? You clearly can't use orange juice because Jesus used wine in the Bible. You can't even use non alcoholic wine, because Jesus used alcholic wine. Technically if you are gluten intolerant and you can't take the bread, then your fairly screwed because you can't concecrate (sp?) gluten free alternatives. Its all about Jesus, if at the end of the meal he had taken a cup that was filled with orange juice and said, 'Take this all of you and drink it: This is my blood which is spilled for you. Do this in memory of me,' then we wouldn't have a problem. Wouldn't really have had the same ring to it though.

    Anyway, the wine isn't the centre piece of the Churches service. You don't even have to take it to have full communion. As long as you eat the bread thats taken as fine. I believe it was the Second Vatican Council that bought that in, though I may be wrong. However, the point is, once the wine has been concecrated Catholics don't believe it to be wine. Sure the form is wine, it hasn't been transformed... it's been transubstantiated (sp?), so the substance of it is different. See the difference? So drinking the 'blood of Christ' in no way means the church can't speak out an alchol consumption. It's entirely different. (In their opinion).
  13. Standard memberjoneschr
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    07 Jun '07 20:14
    Originally posted by pawnhandler
    They are generally between seven and nine, depending on where they live.

    Watching adults reverently take one sip from a cup is quite different from watching television commercials and the adults and teens around them bragging about alcohol and making guzzling and being wasted look cool.
    Been a LONG time since I've been to church, but when I was young and we took communion it was always grape juice for the kiddies, anyway. I'm not Irish though - different customs, different places.
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    07 Jun '07 22:55
    Are you Catholic? Preist I know told me it had to be alcoholic. According to him you wouldn't have actually been taking communion. Depends on denomination though.
  15. Cape Town
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    08 Jun '07 07:46
    Originally posted by Jake Ellison
    See the difference? So drinking the 'blood of Christ' in no way means the church can't speak out an alchol consumption. It's entirely different. (In their opinion).
    Its not so much whether or not the Church can speak out against alcohol consumption but what impact that has. I am sure most churches speak out against excessive alcohol consumption.
    The problem is that Christians who do like to drink can always use communion as an excuse, as an example to show that drinking alcohol cant be all bad. Also the story about Jesus turning water into wine comes in handy too. Clearly Jesus thought that a party isn't a party without some of the hard stuff.
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