1. The sky
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    10 Jun '07 10:44
    Originally posted by agryson
    I'm from just north of Dublin, in county meath. Granted, ours is probably only a few drops of water added as well, but I've never heard of the wine being offered to everyone. Even at a catholic service in Belgium, and one here in Paris it was reserved for the priests. I'm certain it's not just a local thing to my area in Ireland.
    Yes, I remember that from a Catholic service in Germany; I was surprised that the wine wasn't offered to everyone. In the Protestant services I have attended, everybody who wanted (at least everybody who was confirmed, although some churches also allow children) could come to the altar and receive the lord's supper. Some churches served grape juice, especially at family services.
  2. tinyurl.com/ywohm
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    10 Jun '07 12:18
    Originally posted by agryson
    I'm from just north of Dublin, in county meath. Granted, ours is probably only a few drops of water added as well, but I've never heard of the wine being offered to everyone. Even at a catholic service in Belgium, and one here in Paris it was reserved for the priests. I'm certain it's not just a local thing to my area in Ireland.
    As for its effect on alcoho ...[text shortened]... but it's just silly to say that spreading alcoholism (even inadvertently) is one of them.
    In the United States it's offered to everyone.
  3. Donationkirksey957
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    10 Jun '07 13:24
    Originally posted by pawnhandler
    In the United States it's offered to everyone.
    What is the theological message of the priest getting the wine and congregation not getting it?
  4. tinyurl.com/ywohm
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    10 Jun '07 13:27
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    What is the theological message of the priest getting the wine and congregation not getting it?
    My understanding is that in those times and places in which only the priest received the cup, the unspoken message (or perhaps even spoken) was that the mere peasants were unworthy. But I don't remember a Biblical account of the Last Supper saying "You, you, and you take and drink, but you and you ... don't bother."
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    10 Jun '07 14:581 edit
    Originally posted by joneschr
    So, if the essense of christ, as it were, is so independent to the physical matter, then why must it be wine? If wine is harmful to the alcoholic, and we don't want to be making a bunch of drunkards, why not just turn beet juice into the blood of christ. It's quite a bit better for you in it's physical matter. And after all, I'm sure god wouldn't want us getting sick trying to drink his blood.
    The reason is that Jesus used wine at the last supper. Sure the essence is seperate so surely it could be anything, but you just can't use rational arguments against something that is fundamentally based on irrationality. Anyway a sip of wine once a week with probably do as much harm as a sip of beet juice would. I think blaming the church for alcohol abuse was effectivly argued against by agrysonnd at the end of the day the vast majority can well handle a sip of wine.

    I guess the avaliablity of wine just depends on where you are then. Still interesting that I'd never heard of the before now, I suppose I could ask my preist next sunday, see if he has any explaination.
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    10 Jun '07 17:03
    My mother went to school in Wicklow and say says wine was only used on special occations. She thinks it was a cost cutting thing more then anything else.
  7. Standard memberagryson
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    10 Jun '07 17:42
    cost cutting seems more realistic. As for where it's offered and where it's not, that's almost a prrof against the arguement in itself. If a lot of services in Ireland don't offer the wine to the general congregation, but they do (apperently) in America, then the whole link between it and alcoholism seems defunkt. Is that how you spell defunkt?
  8. Standard memberRagnorak
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    10 Jun '07 19:25
    Originally posted by agryson
    cost cutting seems more realistic. As for where it's offered and where it's not, that's almost a prrof against the arguement in itself. If a lot of services in Ireland don't offer the wine to the general congregation, but they do (apperently) in America, then the whole link between it and alcoholism seems defunkt. Is that how you spell defunkt?
    It's not just about the tasting of the wine.

    If as a child, I sat in a bar all day, every day, with my parents as they drank, I may be influenced by this, without ever tasting a drop.

    D
  9. Joined
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    10 Jun '07 20:46
    Originally posted by Ragnorak
    It's not just about the tasting of the wine.

    If as a child, I sat in a bar all day, every day, with my parents as they drank, I may be influenced by this, without ever tasting a drop.

    D
    Ah yes, sounds just like church to me. All we do there is sit and drink too.
  10. tinyurl.com/ywohm
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    11 Jun '07 00:49
    Originally posted by Jake Ellison
    Ah yes, sounds just like church to me. All we do there is sit and drink too.
    AHA! I finally get the correlation! It isn't observing the Eucharist that creates alcoholics in Ireland at all! It's sitting through Mass every week that drives them to drink!! Mystery solved. 😏
  11. Standard memberagryson
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    11 Jun '07 06:31
    ? Look, it was just pointed out a few posts ago that there are many practicing countries where not only is the wine actually drunk by everyone, or some representation of it, but also that there's a lower incidence of alcoholism. The reasons for Irish drinking habits are not complicated and they're not derived from catholicism. We were poor, and it rains all the time, the habit stuck.
    Also, you'll find that up until recently, every pub did have children in it til late while their parents got wasted, the trick was to give them a pack of bacon bites and a bottle of red lemonade and they'd tear around the place and leave you alone for a few hours.
    The reasons for alcoholism (and I'm repeating myself so there's no more silly links made) are based in habit, societal norms and economics, not in the religion.
    We are not the only catholics in the world!
  12. tinyurl.com/ywohm
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    11 Jun '07 11:381 edit
    Originally posted by agryson
    ? Look, it was just pointed out a few posts ago that there are many practicing countries where not only is the wine actually drunk by everyone, or some representation of it, but also that there's a lower incidence of alcoholism. The reasons for Irish drinking habits are not complicated and they're not derived from catholicism. We were poor, and it rains all tal norms and economics, not in the religion.
    We are not the only catholics in the world!
    If you reply-&-quote then we can see who your post is responding to. If you are responding to me, I am one of those who "just pointed out a few posts ago that there are many practicing countries where not only is the wine actually drunk by everyone, or some representation of it, but also that there's a lower incidence of alcoholism," so you're preaching to the choir.


    http://www.goenglish.com/PreachingToTheChoir.asp
  13. Standard memberagryson
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    11 Jun '07 18:53
    sorry pawnhandler, I was actually referring to ragnoraks post about exposure to alcohol consumption as a normal thing in youth leading to negative adult habits, and I was pointing out how these habits are not learnt in mass.

    sing with me...
    I want to be in that choir....


    when the wine gets served around...
    ta da!
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    20 Jun '07 03:18
    Various other commentors have easily dismissed Ragnorak opinion the Irish Catholic Church promote alcoholism, which is why despite my anger I will ignore these comments and move on to the other insults to the Catholic Church

    Firstly I want you to understand that I do even follow the Catholic Church personally so I am not biased but some points to highlight

    1) Ireland in ancient times were renown as the land of scholars, this reputation was larely due Monks

    2) Ireland despite Catholism having a stronghold has one of the best educational systems within Europe. If you want me to back this up with facts I will, but generally qualification levels are high.

    3) The ignorant stero-type that the Irish are illerate may have had some truth in the past. But there is historical reason for the basic education lacked in Ireland in the past- poverty- priests were not responsible.

    4) It is actually because of there beliefs that the Catholic population in Northern Ireland now have high levels of education. As religious discrimination encouraged Catholics to see education as there only chance to escape poverty.


    With the above points I am not arguing Catholic people are in anyway superior to others merely pointing out Cathoism has never held anyone back.
  15. Standard memberRagnorak
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    20 Jun '07 15:48
    Originally posted by 123roco
    With the above points I am not arguing Catholic people are in anyway superior to others merely pointing out Cathoism has never held anyone back.
    Unless of course you had a child out of wedlock (even if it was due to rape), in which case your family generally shipped you off to a lifetime of slave labour at the Catholic run Magdelene Sisters.

    What kind of sick society places fear of religious ridicule over family member's welfare?

    Do you not think that a child repeatedly brutalised and sodomised by a Catholic Priest won't "be held back"? Of course, we can point the finger at individual bad apples, and say these instances weren't representative of Catholicism, or we can look at the truth of the matter and discuss how known paedophiles, were shipped from diocese to diocese to prey on further victims rather than be kicked out of the Catholic church.

    I don't agree that my point re Catholicism and alcoholism was easily dismissed. Would you drink alcohol in front of a friend who was a recovering alcoholic? Is it any coincidence that a law had to be introduced in Ireland to prevent families going straight to the pub after mass on a Sunday?

    Please do back up your assertion that Ireland has one of the best education systems in Europe. I agree with you at the moment, but what I'm interested in seeing is a timeline. I'm fairly sure that the rise in standards in Irish education follows fairly closely with the rise of secularism (probably with a strong correlation to the rise of the Celtic Tiger).

    My personal experience with Catholic teachers was of brutality, plain and simple. Listening to my older family members, some of whom (a woman) had 14 teeth knocked out from a punch by a Catholic Priest when she was 9 (this is only 30odd years ago) says that things have probably got better.

    But then of course, we're all free to have our own opinions. If you choose to use that freedom to defend child beating paedophiles and slave drivers, who push alcohol on children, then that's your choice.

    D
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