26 May 15
In the light of the fact that the 'Jesus is God' argument is still raging on I would like to add a passage that seems very confusing to the arguments of both camps.
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? (Hebrews 1:4-13 KJV)
My personal view is that because the issue is so confusing I would rather just stick with what Christ and all the Apostles said ie that he is the Son of God - a separate and distinct entity from, and subject to, His Father.
It is because of passages like the above that I would not [as many seem to do here] make claims, openly or implied that is issue is a matter of eternal life.
As for the above passage, Paul seems to be saying that God is relating and describing the power and authority of His Son and God [the Father of Christ] states the following :
1, that Christ is a created being
2. that I [God] will be Father and He will be the Son
3. that He [Christ] is also a God
4. that He [Christ] who is also God, participated in the creation.
Confusing to say the least and not at all clear.
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26 May 15
Originally posted by Rajk999Isn't this why Faith is a theological virtue?
In the light of the fact that the 'Jesus is God' argument is still raging on I would like to add a passage that seems very confusing to the arguments of both camps.
[i]Being [b]made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this ...[text shortened]... o is also God, participated in the creation.
Confusing to say the least and not at all clear.[/b]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credo_quia_absurdum
26 May 15
2 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999During the Incarnation the humanity of Christ became lower than the angels; then through His resurrection, ascension and session became higher than the angels. (Hebrews 1:4, 2:9) The crucifixion had to precede His glorification*.
In the light of the fact that the 'Jesus is God' argument is still raging on I would like to add a passage that seems very confusing to the arguments of both camps.
[i]Being [b]made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this ...[text shortened]... o is also God, participated in the creation.
Confusing to say the least and not at all clear.[/b]
Edit Footnote: *Undiminished Deity and Perfect Humanity in One Person forever.
26 May 15
2 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999I just don't see it as confusing and never have. Sometimes it can be helpful to ask a few questions:
In the light of the fact that the 'Jesus is God' argument is still raging on I would like to add a passage that seems very confusing to the arguments of both camps.
[i]Being [b]made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this ...[text shortened]... o is also God, participated in the creation.
Confusing to say the least and not at all clear.[/b]
Is a God someone who we worship?
How many Gods are there?
Is the "son" eternal?
Does the "son" have authority eternally?
When looking at these questions through the lenses of individual entities which appear on earth as described in the Bible it is impossible to understand how there can not be more than one. However when starting with the fundamental "how many Gods are there?" and we say "ONE". Then we can approach the subsequent scriptures in a different light.
Isaiah says of Christ:
"Of the increase of His government and peace, there will be no end...
But Paul says in Corrinthians that Jesus reign is finite:
...then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet...
If we lean on "there is only one God" then we can look at this differently, recognising that this ONE God is reconciling the world to himself through Christ, an extension and representation of his own being and Godhead. An office of his own authority that will end when the the office of "son" hands over all authority back to the office of "Father".
This is how Isiah can say of this ONE entity that he will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. And Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end.
It's the same person. That we cannot understand how God does this is why it is referred to as the "mystery of God in Christ" and our lack of understanding does not give us licence to invent more people in the Godhead.
Hear oh Israel the Lord your God is one.
26 May 15
Originally posted by Rajk999It is always easier for us to attempt to put God into a box of our own choosing. But we should realize that God is more than we can imagine.
In the light of the fact that the 'Jesus is God' argument is still raging on I would like to add a passage that seems very confusing to the arguments of both camps.
[i]Being [b]made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this ...[text shortened]... o is also God, participated in the creation.
Confusing to say the least and not at all clear.[/b]
HalleluYaH !!! Praise the LORD! Holy! Holy! Holy!
26 May 15
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyFurther Comment: Christ's Deity and humanity were in hypostatic union during the First Advent. Some of Satan's temptations were to His humanity while others [to turn stones into bread] were to His Deity. These two passages in Hebrews ["lower than the angels"] refer to Christ's humanity.
During the Incarnation the humanity of Christ became lower than the angels; then through His resurrection, ascension and session became higher than the angels. (Hebrews 1:4, 2:9) The crucifixion had to precede His glorification*.
Edit Footnote: *Undiminished Deity and Perfect Humanity in One Person forever.
26 May 15
Originally posted by divegeesterWe must resist the temptation of the heresy of Modalism, even though it may appeal to our finite understandings.
I just don't see it as confusing and never have. Sometimes it can be helpful to ask a few questions:
Is a God someone who we worship?
How many Gods are there?
Is the "son" eternal?
Does the "son" have authority eternally?
When looking at these questions through the lenses of individual entities which appear on earth as described in the Bible it ...[text shortened]... ve us licence to invent more people in the Godhead.
Hear oh Israel the Lord your God is one.
HalleluYaHshua !
Originally posted by Rajk999It is absolutely crystal clear.
In the light of the fact that the 'Jesus is God' argument is still raging on I would like to add a passage that seems very confusing to the arguments of both camps.
[i]Being [b]made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this ...[text shortened]... o is also God, participated in the creation.
Confusing to say the least and not at all clear.[/b]
1. Jesus was a created entity - Colossians 1:15,16
2. Father and son is simply the description of a relationship.
3. The term god simply means a might spiritual (sometimes human) entity. We have been preconditioned to think of it in terms of a deity, the Bible uses both. Its use does not necessitate that it is made with reference to the Almighty.
4. Yes all things were created through the Christ - Colossians 1:16 states a s much and Proverbs 8 describes Christ as a figurative master worker.
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist. - Colossians 1:16
26 May 15
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThe Watchtower packaged god. 😏
It is absolutely crystal clear.
1. Jesus was a created entity - Colossians 1:15,16
2. Father and son is simply the description of a relationship.
3. The term god simply means a might spiritual (sometimes human) entity. We have been preconditioned to think of it in terms of a deity, the Bible uses both. Its use does not necessitate that it is m ...[text shortened]... ore all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist. - Colossians 1:16
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Originally posted by Rajk999
In the light of the fact that the 'Jesus is God' argument is still raging on I would like to add a passage that seems very confusing to the arguments of both camps.
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
This speaks of the incarnation of God as a man to be our Redeemer, Savior, Lord and life.
In the process of God dispensing Himself into man, along the way, economically God was incarnated as a human. You read it - "And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us ..." (John 1:14)
That is the Word that was with God and was God (John 1:1)
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?
Only two angels are mentioned by name in the Scripture - Gabriel and Michael. The answer has to be "To NO angel did God ever say that".
One exception could be "the Angel of Jehovah" which a number of times is synonymous with God Himself.
And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
I don't see a problem so far contradicting that God incarnated as a man in His economy to dispense Himself into His redeemed and justified believers.
And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God,
This passage is a bases of the expression "God the Son".
The Son of God here is spoken of as being God - period.
is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
This portion reveals that the man is God and the man has God.
This is consisted with Him having "fellows" .
He is one of us yet He is also God - the Son.
God became a man so that we might become God, not in His Godhead, but we may become God by way of being His "many sons" being brought into the glorious expression of the Divine Being.
As Hebrews says:
"For it was fitting for Him, for who are all things and through whom are all things, in leading many sons into glory, to make the Author [or Captain, Originator, Inaugarator, Leader, Pioneer] of their salvation perfect through suffering.
For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of One, for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brothers." (Hebrews 2:10,11)
God who became man like us has fellows. And He is leading these fellows, these many other sons of God into the glorious expression of the eternal life. That is the God expressed in being mingled with humanity.
He, being God the Son, has justified and redeemed His people. He is sanctifying them and leading them as the REAL Joshua - the Captain of salvation.
He is among man yet anointed with an exultant joy unique to Himself alone as the one Redeemer. He is anointed "above His fellows" .
As God and man He is in our midst declaring "the Father" in the midst of the church -
... " I will declare Your name [the name Father] to my brothers; in the midst of the church I will sing hymns of praise to You."
The Godman, Jesus Christ, is in the midst of us, the ekklesia (the church), for He is man as we are men. He is the object of our worship. Yet He is also the Captain of our salvation, one with us, leading us as Joshua led Israel into the Good Land.
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? (Hebrews 1:4-13 KJV)
It is amazing that the writer of the book of Hebrews would not flinch in the least from applying these words from Psalm 102:25-27 to Jesus Christ. This proves without a doubt that the writer of Hebrews, under inspiration, is teaching that the Creator of the universe is Christ.
But then again without the Word nothing that has come into being would have apart from Christ.
My personal view is that because the issue is so confusing I would rather just stick with what Christ and all the Apostles said ie that he is the Son of God - a separate and distinct entity from, and subject to, His Father.
Where is Christ "SEPARATE" from His Father in this passage?
"Phillip said to Him, Lord, show us the Father and it is sufficient for us.
Jesus said to him, Have I been so long a time with you, and you have not known Me, Phillip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how is it that you say, Show us the Father? (John 14:8,9)
The Father and the Son are here distinct. But they are not separate. For, Phillip says "Lord, show us the Father ..." . And Jesus said - "Have I been so long a time with you, AND YOU HAVE NOT KNOWN ME, Phillip?
Think about this.
" Lord show us the Father ..."
" Have I been so long a time with you, and you have not known Me, Phillip?"
So where here is your "mandatory" separation between the Father and Jesus the Son of God ? The Father lives in the Son and the Son lives in the Father, as explained in His next sentence -
"Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak from Myself, but the Father who abides in Me does His works." (v.10)
Using a little imagination we might even imagining Jesus saying -
"Phillip, don't you remember Isaiah 9:6? Didn't the prophet already tell you that the Son given would be called the Eternal Father? Were you not already told that the child born would be the Mighty God and the Son given would be the Eternal Father in Isaiah 9:6 ? How do you say to the Son to show you the Father? For over three years now that is exactly what I have been doing. Don't you know Me yet Phillip ?"
26 May 15
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWe've been around on this point many times, and still, you refuse to learn.
It is absolutely crystal clear.
1. Jesus was a created entity - Colossians 1:15,16
2. Father and son is simply the description of a relationship.
3. The term god simply means a might spiritual (sometimes human) entity. We have been preconditioned to think of it in terms of a deity, the Bible uses both. Its use does not necessitate that it is m ...[text shortened]... ore all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist. - Colossians 1:16
First, of all, for a self-professed linguist, you miss the mark repeatedly.
Firstborn, in this passage, relates to rank and not to being the eldest. You can plainly see this if you see Colossians 1:17: "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." And even Colossians 1:18: "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." (Bold is mine.)
As to the Greek words used, we've been over this, too. You still fail there, too.
You're right, it IS "crystal clear". But somehow, you refuse to see just what is "crystal clear" and you somehow fog it up anyways.
And you stopped just a bit early. The entire rest of Colossians 1 gives testimony to this idea that He is "before all things". But you didn't mention that, did you?