Christ vs a High Moral Code

Originally posted by divegeester
The 10 commandments are not a "moral code". Morality is a manmade construct.

The ten commandments is a fixed standard. It is in code form. Is it not?

By fixed standard I mean it is like a pole the gym student is to jump over. It is not raised. It is not lowered. It is fixed at a certain point.

Unlike the movable pole that is adjusted for the gym students age and ability, the law of the ten commandments from God is FIXED. It was not subject to adjustment.

It made no concessions for development. It made no allowances for growth or ability.
Where there is a lack of development that is too bad. You fail - period.

This is why the law of Moses EXPOSES the insidious nature of sin in man.
But the law was, as Paul said, a school master leading the student to grace. That is the grace Christ living blended and interwoven with the being of the saved man.

The standard of the law of Moses is fixed No man can attain to its level completely. And it exposes all humans as sinners. The last commandment of the 10 is a catch all.

"You shall not covet."

No one is completely satisfied in God Himself so that he does not want jealously something else that someone has. The car, the house, the position, the job, the wife, the husband, the prestige, the education, even the religious success ... all are objects of man's coveting.

No one is so completely satisfied simply with God Himself so as not to hold something else higher as an idol, jealously yearning for what another has.

But this fixed standard which no one can attain is inferior to the new covenant " law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus ". There is a spontaneous empowering of divine life that can be installed into the man which is Christ Himself in a form in which he blends and is mingled with a man.

Now there can be development beyond the fixed level of the law of Moses.
Now not only the outward action of adultery can be arrested but even the inner motive that gave rise to the action is swallowed up.

The law of Moses allowed no development up to its level in most cases.
It also allowed no development beyond its fixed level.

The " law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" is a Person living in the believer penetrating deeper, lifting him higher. It advances the man or woman not only up to the standard of Moses's law but beyond its fixity.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] Here we go ... the dangerous Christian doctrine of complacency and laziness.

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There is nothing complacent about opening up every chamber of one's heart to Jesus Christ. This is the consecration of turning your whole being over to Christ.[/b]

And you really think that everyone who professes faith in Christ, would be ...opening up every chamber of one's heart to Jesus Christ.. What planet do you live on?

It is because of the dumb and naive people like you that Christ and all the aposltes stated clearly that DOERS AND FOLLOWERS OF COMMANDMENTS WILL ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

Hearers and talkers will get eternal damnation.

Originally posted by sonship
The law given at Mt. Sinai was a moral code given by God Himself.
It was not the only moral code in history by any means.
It was the one authentic divinely delivered high moral standard in commandments.

Bible juxtaposes life with Jesus Christ as better, higher, more authentic and more effective than living by this moral code (even originally from God ...[text shortened]... commands of Jesus Christ and the commandments of God given from Mt. Sinai in the Old Testament?

I'm still unclear why you are pitting one against the other. Surely actively adhering to a high moral code is the path to Christ?

The law given at Mt. Sinai is basically telling people how God expects them to live their lives and what is required of them. What could be more authentic than that?

Originally posted by sonship
The ten commandments is a fixed standard. It is in code form. Is it not?

By fixed standard I mean it is like a pole the gym student is to jump over. It is not raised. It is not lowered. It is fixed at a certain point.

Unlike the movable pole that is adjusted for the gym students age and ability, the law of the ten commandments from God is F ...[text shortened]... o grace. That is the grace Christ living blended and interwoven with the being of the saved man.

The 10 commandments are not "morality", the notion of morality is a human construct.

Originally posted by divegeester
The 10 commandments are not "morality", the notion of morality is a human construct.

If one describes immoral as sinful then it is God's construct.

Originally posted by Eladar
If one describes immoral as sinful then it is God's construct.

One doesn't, so it isn't.

Originally posted by divegeester
One doesn't, so it isn't.

I do.

Originally posted by Rajk999

And you really think that everyone who professes faith in Christ, would be ...opening up every chamber of one's heart to Jesus Christ.. What planet do you live on?
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I spoke of what ought to be as normal consecration.
I did not speak about what is as too typical.

If you weren't so eager to misunderstand, you might have seen that.
But you are too occupied with seeking fault.


Hearers and talkers will get eternal damnation.
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It seems that out of one side of your mouth you argue against eternal damnation.
How come you uphold it at other times when you're searching for fault with my posts?

Make up your mind.
There is no eternal damnation or there is eternal damnation.
Which do you believe?

Originally posted by divegeester
The 10 commandments are not "morality", the notion of morality is a human construct.

The 10 commandments are not "morality", the notion of morality is a human construct.

So because they are rules from God they are not the human construct involving morality?

You do agree that the law of God given to Moses were rules from God, don't you?

Are you suggesting that rules from God are not about morality but rules from man are?

Moses says in Deuteronomy 4:4-8

But you who joined yourselves to Jehovah your God are alive, all of you today.

See, I have taught you statutes and judgments, as Jehovah my God commanded me, so that you would do them within the land which you are going in to possess.

Keep and do them therefore; for this will be your wisdom and prudence in the sight of the peoples who hear all these statutes and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and prudent people.

For what great nation is there that has a god so near to it as Jehovah our God is whenever we call upon Him?

And what great nation is there that has statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law which I am setting before you today?"

Where is the difference between this nation Israel and her moral code and the moral code of another nation embodying their wisdom? There is here the thought that the surrounding nations would compare their moral code with that of Israel and be impressed with the superiority of Israel's.

Where is the thought that one concerns morality and the other does not?

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
I'm still unclear why you are pitting one against the other. Surely actively adhering to a high moral code is the path to Christ?

The law given at Mt. Sinai is basically telling people how God expects them to live their lives and what is required of them. What could be more authentic than that?

I'm still unclear why you are pitting one against the other. Surely actively adhering to a high moral code is the path to Christ?

Your question goes to the heart of the matter that there was an old covenant and a new covenant. Your question strikes at the heart of the matter of there being an Old Testament and a New Testament.

The New Testament is a matter of God coming into us to blend and mingle with us. The former is to live for God. The latter is to live God.

The former is to muster up human energy to live up to the commanded standard.
The latter is a matter of the Perfect Righteous One the Son of God being imparted to man.


The law given at Mt. Sinai is basically telling people how God expects them to live their lives and what is required of them. What could be more authentic than
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That is correct. And everyone fails. And all the world is held under condemnation.
In fact the old covenant was called by Paul "the ministry of condemnation".
The new covenant is called "the ministry of righteousness" and "the ministry of the Spirit".

This will take more time then I give you in this one post.

But God promises in the Old Testament that He will make a new covenant. Briefly speaking He says He will inscribe something into the hearts and write something into the inner being. This writing and inscribing is of something living. This is the imparting of the One and Only Righteous One INTO man that man may live a blended and mingled life with Christ.

I before used the example of so-called "power steering". The next time you drive your car and you feel the power steering mechanism respond to your turning the wheel, supplementing your cooperation with strength generated hydraulically from your engine, i would like to to consider that is like the New Testament Grace in Christ.

Of course before He can install that "power steering" into your "car" of your being He has to take care of the real record of guilt that you incurred from transgressions of His law. This is the judicial side of His removing the guilt of your sins.

The "organic" side is that for the future the resurrected and available Christ writes Himself into your being. You learn to live a new way, with patience and trial and error. You learn to walk in the sphere of this heavenly "power steering" of the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus used this formula -

"You have heard that it was said to the ancients ...
But I say to you ..." (Matt. 5:21-22)

The law is what God said in the past.
Divine life coming into man is what Jesus says today.
And I mean today.

The law is what God commanded in the past at Sinai to the ancients.
The new covenant is about Christ as divine life - a living Divine Person coming into man to say something today.

In the past to the ancients, from Mt. Sinai God commanded man not to commit adultery.
When Jesus comes into your heart long before the physical action of adultery is committed He will speak to you about the imagination of your heart, your gazing with the intent to lust, the daydream, the turning for a second look.

This is the today's what Jesus says. This is the more penetrating, more dealing on the microscopic level of the most intimate motive, the arresting of the tendency in the heart.

We make a mistake to think that when Jesus said "But I say to you ..." He was merely speaking to the audience standing around at that time. The meaning of "But I say to you ..." encompasses His living in us when we are born again and His up-to-date command touching minute motions in our heart on a "molecular" level.

"But I say to you ..." is His present speaking.
The intimate and personal nature of this is so custom made and tailored to each individual as to be too fine to put into written code.

"But I say to you ..." will touch the innermost motive of the heart. His control will regulate so deeply that what was said to the ancients will seem clumsy in comparison and inadequate.

The leading of Christ as the Holy Spirit is so up-to-date, intimate, molecular, fine, detailed, and powerful. It supplies grace to obey. And it is liberating from the bondage legalism.

"Now the Lord is the Spirit. And where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom." (2 Cor. 3:17)

Originally posted by sonship...
Why is this so?
And what is the difference between the commands of Jesus Christ and the commandments of God given from Mt. Sinai in the Old Testament?

I am hungry, day after day. You have done well enough, sonship. Come closer now.

Originally posted by Eladar
I do.

You, like Robbie Carrobie, also use biblical scripture to coerse your wife into having sex with you. I'm afraid your opinion doesn't carry much weight.

Originally posted by sonship
So because they are rules from God they are not the human construct involving morality? You do agree that the law of God given to Moses were rules from God, don't you?

God never talks about his morality in the bible, he talks about his righteousness. Morality is a transient human construct, righteousness is a permenant state of being which is not necessarily attributed to by actions.