1. weedhopper
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    28 Mar '08 21:59
    This week, my Sunday School class will be discussing what we think heaven will be like--specifically
    1. will we recognize others, and
    2. will we get there immediately upon our physical death.
    I would be interested to know what other Christians in other denominations believe, especially on part 2. I've heard in every church I've ever been to that we will recognize others in paradise. But some denominations believe we will go to heaven as soon as death occurs (assuming that is our destination), while others speak of soulsleep, where we don't go right away.
    Thought, anyone ? Anyone ? Bueller ?
  2. Melbourne, Australia
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    28 Mar '08 22:10
    Originally posted by PinkFloyd
    This week, my Sunday School class will be discussing what we think heaven will be like--specifically
    1. will we recognize others, and
    2. will we get there immediately upon our physical death.
    I would be interested to know what other Christians in other denominations believe, especially on part 2. I've heard in every church I've ever been to that ...[text shortened]... ak of soulsleep, where we don't go right away.
    Thought, anyone ? Anyone ? Bueller ?
    I'm not a christian, but I was raised one, and it always struck me as a little strange the preoccupation with personalising all aspects of religious belief.
    So, we have the personal god, we have the notion of heaven as an actual place with people walking around, and conversely hell as a place with people ... doing whatever they do in hell.
    If I were inclined to believe in these things, I think I would have to do away with the personalisation that this all entails. Heaven as a transcendent place, perhaps analogous to the buddhist nirvana, but not some place with clouds and smiles and love and angels and other people.
  3. weedhopper
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    28 Mar '08 22:13
    Originally posted by amannion
    I'm not a christian, but I was raised one, and it always struck me as a little strange the preoccupation with personalising all aspects of religious belief.
    So, we have the personal god, we have the notion of heaven as an actual place with people walking around, and conversely hell as a place with people ... doing whatever they do in hell.
    If I were incli ...[text shortened]... ddhist nirvana, but not some place with clouds and smiles and love and angels and other people.
    I was brought up Christian as well, and Christianity always struck me as a very personalized religion. Accepting Jesus as our "personal" savior was one of the main tenets, at least in my Methodist church. I guess I'm wondering what is wrong with a faith that is personalized?
  4. Melbourne, Australia
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    28 Mar '08 22:37
    Originally posted by PinkFloyd
    I was brought up Christian as well, and Christianity always struck me as a very personalized religion. Accepting Jesus as our "personal" savior was one of the main tenets, at least in my Methodist church. I guess I'm wondering what is wrong with a faith that is personalized?
    I agree completely - it must be one of the most personal faiths.
    I guess I always see the opportunity for counter arguments and for contradictions to easily creep into any religion that lies in such a personal domain.
    This would be partly what eventually led me to atheism I suppose.
  5. Joined
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    28 Mar '08 22:491 edit
    Originally posted by PinkFloyd
    This week, my Sunday School class will be discussing what we think heaven will be like--specifically
    1. will we recognize others, and
    2. will we get there immediately upon our physical death.
    I would be interested to know what other Christians in other denominations believe, especially on part 2. I've heard in every church I've ever been to that ...[text shortened]... ak of soulsleep, where we don't go right away.
    Thought, anyone ? Anyone ? Bueller ?
    *Bueller turns to camera*

    I always thought that we would become as if asleep... until called
  6. Standard memberKellyJay
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    29 Mar '08 01:48
    Originally posted by PinkFloyd
    This week, my Sunday School class will be discussing what we think heaven will be like--specifically
    1. will we recognize others, and
    2. will we get there immediately upon our physical death.
    I would be interested to know what other Christians in other denominations believe, especially on part 2. I've heard in every church I've ever been to that ...[text shortened]... ak of soulsleep, where we don't go right away.
    Thought, anyone ? Anyone ? Bueller ?
    1, yes
    2. no
    Kelly
  7. weedhopper
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    29 Mar '08 07:36
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    1, yes
    2. no
    Kelly
    Kelly, Regarding #2--then do you think we will "sleep" in the ground until the Last Day? If so, will we be aware that we are there, or will it be like a suspended animation, where we won't know anything until we are with the Lord in heaven?
    I tend toward the "soulsleep" argument too, but I admit, Paul's statement that when we are "absent from the body", we are "present with the Lord" seems to imply that we DO go directly to heaven upon our earthly demise.
  8. Standard memberKellyJay
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    30 Mar '08 19:57
    Originally posted by PinkFloyd
    Kelly, Regarding #2--then do you think we will "sleep" in the ground until the Last Day? If so, will we be aware that we are there, or will it be like a suspended animation, where we won't know anything until we are with the Lord in heaven?
    I tend toward the "soulsleep" argument too, but I admit, Paul's statement that when we are "absent from the body", ...[text shortened]... ith the Lord" seems to imply that we DO go directly to heaven upon our earthly demise.
    No, I believe we will be very aware. Check out a story Jesus told, I
    believe it to be a story, not a parable because Jesus used proper
    names in the telling.


    Luke 20:
    20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
    21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
    22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
    23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
    24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
    25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
    26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
    27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
    28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
    29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
    30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
    31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
    20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
    21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
    22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
    23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
    24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
    25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
    26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
    27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
    28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
    29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
    30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
    31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


    There was a new testament story that backed up the fact people would not believe even if one rose from the dead as well.
    Kelly
  9. weedhopper
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    30 Mar '08 20:28
    Kelly,

    Thanks--I had forgotten about the rich man/Lazarus story. I agree, it's a pretty good indication that our sense will be working after our physical death occurs.
  10. Cape Town
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    31 Mar '08 06:25
    Originally posted by PinkFloyd
    This week, my Sunday School class will be discussing what we think heaven will be like--specifically
    1. will we recognize others,
    I have tried repeatedly on these forums to get people to tell me about the soul, but so far the most willing to talk about it have been people who do not apparently believe that the consciousness is part of the soul.
    The biggest problem I see with the soul concept lies in the fact that we are in fact ever changing, and in some cases our change results in less than desirable results. So, for example, suppose someone grows old, looses all their memory, goes mad etc then dies. How could they recognize others in heaven that they had forgotten in life? Would they be mad in heaven? Would they somehow me magically 'cured' with memories restored? Which memories? Would such a magically restored soul constitute the same 'being' as the one that died or would it in fact really be something totally new?
  11. Melbourne, Australia
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    31 Mar '08 06:41
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I have tried repeatedly on these forums to get people to tell me about the soul, but so far the most willing to talk about it have been people who do not apparently believe that the consciousness is part of the soul.
    The biggest problem I see with the soul concept lies in the fact that we are in fact ever changing, and in some cases our change results in ...[text shortened]... e the same 'being' as the one that died or would it in fact really be something totally new?
    I don't think believers want to think that deeply about it. Deep rational thought leads to many contradictions and absurdities.
    What people really want are the warm fuzzy feelings without too much thought or effort.
    The soul, afterlife, heaven, and so on provide that - so long as you don't question it too closely. Hence the few responses to your probing ...
  12. weedhopper
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    31 Mar '08 14:55
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I have tried repeatedly on these forums to get people to tell me about the soul, but so far the most willing to talk about it have been people who do not apparently believe that the consciousness is part of the soul.
    The biggest problem I see with the soul concept lies in the fact that we are in fact ever changing, and in some cases our change results in ...[text shortened]... e the same 'being' as the one that died or would it in fact really be something totally new?
    Regarding getting mad or sad in heaven, I've asked about this of many pastors. The answer I get most often is that if we are angry or upset upon realizing that some of our loved ones are not present, the feelings will be short-lived. God will "dry every tear" and this presumably will make way for pure joy of being in the presence of the Savior/Almighty.
  13. Standard memberKellyJay
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    31 Mar '08 16:16
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I have tried repeatedly on these forums to get people to tell me about the soul, but so far the most willing to talk about it have been people who do not apparently believe that the consciousness is part of the soul.
    The biggest problem I see with the soul concept lies in the fact that we are in fact ever changing, and in some cases our change results in ...[text shortened]... e the same 'being' as the one that died or would it in fact really be something totally new?
    Think of memory and those things of that nature as you do your
    hands and feet, it is simply a part of the physical world, while the
    soul is that which directs a life, it is what makes up a person on the
    inside which typically causes them to behave the way they do
    affecting the world around them. People lose their arms and legs,
    they lose their eye sight, the life within doesn’t diminish at all,
    only their ability to function in this world as others do. So it is with
    the mind as well, the soul will direct the mind, if the mind is
    damaged the life inside remains. It seems you want to make the
    mind itself the person in this life and the next.
    Kelly
  14. Melbourne, Australia
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    31 Mar '08 20:53
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Think of memory and those things of that nature as you do your
    hands and feet, it is simply a part of the physical world, while the
    soul is that which directs a life, it is what makes up a person on the
    inside which typically causes them to behave the way they do
    affecting the world around them. People lose their arms and legs,
    they lose their eye sigh ...[text shortened]... remains. It seems you want to make the
    mind itself the person in this life and the next.
    Kelly
    That's just meaningless mumbo jumbo - the soul is that which directs a life? the soul will direct the mind?
    Sorry KJ, but the soul is a meaningless thing. The reality is that christian belief in the soul comes from mistaken greek translations of the biblical texts. You guys have set up a whole theology based on someone's mistakes.
    That would be funny if you all didn't put so much effort into trying to invest this pointless idea with some sort of reality.
    Well, I'm willing to hear some ideas,but you're going to have to do better than 'directs a life' and 'direct the mind'...
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    31 Mar '08 22:201 edit
    Originally posted by PinkFloyd
    This week, my Sunday School class will be discussing what we think heaven will be like--specifically
    1. will we recognize others, and
    2. will we get there immediately upon our physical death.
    I would be interested to know what other Christians in other denominations believe, especially on part 2. I've heard in every church I've ever been to that ...[text shortened]... ak of soulsleep, where we don't go right away.
    Thought, anyone ? Anyone ? Bueller ?
    2 Corinthians chapter 8
    6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
    7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)
    8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

    As I see it we are either in the body or with the Lord.
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