1. Standard memberRJHinds
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    15 Nov '12 21:20
    Originally posted by galveston75
    Well then you have an issue don't you? The Bible says not to kill and Jesus said to turn the other cheek.
    I totally understand all that means as well as the scriptures you "only see" because that's in your heart to only see that and not able to see what these scriptures really mean.
    You kill whoever you see fit to fill your need and we will not kill.
    Lets see how God views these two different stands in the end. Deal?
    The Holy Bible says not to murder.

    There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven—
    A time to give birth and a time to die;
    A time to plant and a time to uproot what is planted.
    A time to kill and a time to heal;

    (Ecclesiastes 3:1-3 NASB)
  2. Standard membergalveston75
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    15 Nov '12 23:37
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    The Holy Bible says not to murder.

    [b]There is an appointed time for everything.
    And there is a time for every event under heaven—
    A time to give birth and a time to die;
    A time to plant and a time to uproot what is planted.
    A time to kill and a time to heal;

    (Ecclesiastes 3:1-3 NASB)[/b]
    Well it seems you some what have the Old Testiment down but why would God command anyone to kill then? What did God need to protect from a promise he made?

    Now lets go to the New Testiment. Did anything change in reguards from the Old Testiment once Jesus was born and became the promissed Messiah in reguards to fighting and killing?
    And finally AGAIN, what did Jesus teach and show by example in this thing we are discussing?
    Did he ever say in any fashion to as his followers that is ok to kill or fight for a government under any circumstances?

    So think on this and instead of coming back with some rediculas comments about the JW's, take this time to really give an answer that can be discussed like adults.
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    15 Nov '12 23:39
    Originally posted by galveston75
    Well it seems you some what have the Old Testiment down but why would God command anyone to kill then? What did God need to protect from a promise he made?

    Now lets go to the New Testiment. Did anything change in reguards from the Old Testiment once Jesus was born and became the promissed Messiah in reguards to fighting and killing?
    And finally AG ...[text shortened]... ents about the JW's, take this time to really give an answer that can be discussed like adults.
    is rj right? did god say there is a time to kill?
  4. Standard memberRJHinds
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    16 Nov '12 00:06
    Originally posted by galveston75
    Well it seems you some what have the Old Testiment down but why would God command anyone to kill then? What did God need to protect from a promise he made?

    Now lets go to the New Testiment. Did anything change in reguards from the Old Testiment once Jesus was born and became the promissed Messiah in reguards to fighting and killing?
    And finally AG ...[text shortened]... ents about the JW's, take this time to really give an answer that can be discussed like adults.
    Jesus mostly talked about behavior in civil life, not war.

    When the Lord your God brings you into the land where you are entering to possess it, and clears away many nations before you...and when the Lord your God delivers them before you and you defeat them, then you shall utterly destroy them.
    (Dueteronomy 7:1-2 NASB)

    Thus David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and a stone, and he struck the Philistine and killed him; but there was no sword in David’s hand. Then David ran and stood over the Philistine and took his sword and drew it out of its sheath and killed him, and cut off his head with it. When the Philistines saw that their champion was dead, they fled.

    (1 Samuel 17:50-51 NASB)

    ...if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews...

    (John 18:36)
  5. Standard membergalveston75
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    16 Nov '12 00:18
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Jesus mostly talked about behavior in civil life, not war.

    [b]When the Lord your God brings you into the land where you are entering to possess it, and clears away many nations before you
    ...and when the Lord your God delivers them before you and you defeat them, then you shall utterly destroy them.
    (Dueteronomy 7:1-2 NASB)

    Thus David pr ...[text shortened]... then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews...

    (John 18:36)[/b]
    Your still missing the differances of what God was doing and saying in the OT and the NT.
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    16 Nov '12 00:21
    Originally posted by galveston75
    Your still missing the differances of what God was doing and saying in the OT and the NT.
    not to mention missing out the rest of the verse which are contrary to his stance.
  7. Standard memberRJHinds
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    16 Nov '12 01:001 edit
    Originally posted by galveston75
    Your still missing the differances of what God was doing and saying in the OT and the NT.
    I have already pointed out by all my posts that the Old Testament had already made a difference between types of killing. The forbidden type in both the Old and New Testament is murder. War and self-defense are different matters than murder.

    Christ did not come the first time to war against flesh and blood, but against the spiritual powers of the evil one. We have civil governments to turn to in civil matters and do not need to meet violence with violence to seek justice.

    The national governments determine when war is necessary and that is not left up to the individuals decision. We are to obey what our elected government decides on these matters as the scriptures indicate.
  8. Standard membergalveston75
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    16 Nov '12 03:55
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    I have already pointed out by all my posts that the Old Testament had already made a difference between types of killing. The forbidden type in both the Old and New Testament is murder. War and self-defense are different matters than murder.

    Christ did not come the first time to war against flesh and blood, but against the spiritual powers of the evil o ...[text shortened]... We are to obey what our elected government decides on these matters as the scriptures indicate.
    That's fine as that is your opinion. Jesus said his kingdom is NO prt of the world. That is our view. If we were to support the kingdoms of the world, Jesus would have said so and would have no dobt supported the one he lived in. He did not in anyway support it other then to obey any law that does not contradict the laws set up by his Father.


    Just found this little bit of info. Interesting.....

    Christian writers prior to Constantine [Roman emperor 306-337 C.E.] unanimously condemned killing in war,” says the Encyclopedia of Religion and War. A shift in attitude occurred when the apostasy foretold in the Bible became rampant.—Acts 20:29, 30; 1 Timothy 4:1.


    The Bible’s Viewpoint

    Is It Possible to Love One’s Enemies?

    “I say to you,” said Jesus Christ, “continue to love your enemies and to pray for those persecuting you; that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous.”—Matthew 5:44, 45.

    DO YOU see religion as a force for love and peace or for hatred and violence?

    Today many see it as the latter, especially when religion is fused with politics, ethnicity, or nationalism. Yet, as Jesus’ words show, those who are true ‘sons of God’ imitate God’s love—even toward their enemies.

    Another servant of God stated: “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink . . . Do not let yourself be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good.” (Romans 12:20, 21) But is such love really possible in this divided world? Jehovah’s Witnesses unequivocally answer yes! Consider the example of Jesus and his early followers.

    They Loved Their Enemies

    Jesus taught the truth about God, and many listened to him with pleasure. Others, however, turned against him, some out of ignorance. (John 7:12, 13; Acts 2:36-38; 3:15, 17) Nevertheless, Jesus continued to share his lifesaving message with all, including opposers. (Mark 12:13-34) Why? He knew that some might change their ways, recognize him as the Messiah, and conform to the spiritual truths found in God’s Word.—John 7:1, 37-46; 17:17.

    Even on the night of his unjust arrest by armed opponents, Jesus showed love for his enemies. In fact, he healed one of his captors, whom the apostle Peter had struck with a sword. On that occasion Jesus stated an important principle that guides his true followers to this day. He said: “All those who take the sword will perish by the sword.” (Matthew 26:48-52; John 18:10, 11) Some 30 years later, Peter wrote: “Christ suffered for you, leaving you a model for you to follow his steps closely. . . . When he was suffering, he did not go threatening, but kept on committing himself to [God].” (1 Peter 2:21, 23) Clearly, Peter had learned that love, not retaliation, is the way of Christ’s true followers.—Matthew 5:9.

    All who ‘follow Jesus’ steps closely’ reflect his loving, gracious disposition. “A slave of the Lord does not need to fight, but needs to be gentle toward all, . . . keeping himself restrained under evil,” says 2 Timothy 2:24. Those qualities would be evident in the Christian’s way of life, which is one of peace and reconciliation.
    Peaceable ‘Ambassadors for Christ’

    To his fellow believers, the apostle Paul wrote: “We are therefore ambassadors substituting for Christ . . . As substitutes for Christ we beg: ‘Become reconciled to God.’” (2 Corinthians 5:20) Ambassadors do not meddle in the internal political and military affairs of the countries where they serve. Rather, they remain neutral. Their job is to represent and advocate the government for which they speak.
    The same is true of Christ’s ambassadors and envoys. They view Jesus as King and advocate his heavenly Kingdom by peacefully proclaiming the good news. (Matthew 24:14; John 18:36) Thus, Paul wrote to Christians of his day: “We do not wage warfare according to what we are in the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning . . . reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God.”—2 Corinthians 10:3-5; Ephesians 6:13-20.

    When Paul penned those words, Christians were being persecuted in many lands. To be sure, they could have retaliated. Instead, they continued to love their enemies and to share the message of reconciliation with all who would listen. The Encyclopedia of Religion and War states: “The earliest followers of Jesus rejected war and military service,” recognizing these practices as “incompatible with the love ethic of Jesus and the injunction to love one’s enemies.”

    Like the early Christians, Jehovah’s Witnesses recognize Jesus as their King. They also recognize him as King of God’s Kingdom—a heavenly government that will soon bring about lasting peace and security on earth. (Daniel 2:44; Matthew 6:9, 10) Hence, like ambassadors and envoys, they proclaim the excellencies of that Kingdom. At the same time, they strive to be good citizens of the lands in which they live, paying their taxes and obeying the law where it does not conflict with God’s law.—Acts 5:29; Romans 13:1, 7.

    Sadly, though, like the early Christians, the Witnesses are sometimes misunderstood, maligned, and persecuted. Still, they never retaliate. Rather, they try to be “peaceable with all men,” hoping that some opposers may “become reconciled to God” and have the prospect of everlasting life.—Romans 12:18; John 17:3.



    So RJH........are you an ambassoder of Christ? Do you bring piece or war?
  9. Standard membergalveston75
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    16 Nov '12 03:58
    "Rather, they try to be “peaceable with all men,” hoping that some opposers may “become reconciled to God” and have the prospect of everlasting life.—Romans 12:18; John 17:3."


    Did you get this point RJH? If you approach your enemy with a gun, he will react accordingly. If you approach him with love and peace you just might win him over to love and to be peaceable. Right or wrong?
  10. Standard memberRJHinds
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    16 Nov '12 05:25
    Originally posted by galveston75
    That's fine as that is your opinion. Jesus said his kingdom is NO prt of the world. That is our view. If we were to support the kingdoms of the world, Jesus would have said so and would have no dobt supported the one he lived in. He did not in anyway support it other then to obey any law that does not contradict the laws set up by his Father.


    Just ...[text shortened]... 8; John 17:3.



    So RJH........are you an ambassoder of Christ? Do you bring piece or war?
    Like I said before, the New Testament was not referring to physical war, but spiritual war. A physical war can not be won by turning the other cheek. A nation that does not fight back in war is at the mercy of the attacker and will become either slaves of the attacker or destroyed.

    Jesus only meant his turn the other cheek saying to refer to civil matters where there is a government that provides other ways than violence to settle these civil matters. It is ridiculous to think Jesus would also recommend this action in a war. So maybe we should let Judge Judy decide the issue.
  11. Standard membergalveston75
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    16 Nov '12 15:17
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Like I said before, the New Testament was not referring to physical war, but spiritual war. A physical war can not be won by turning the other cheek. A nation that does not fight back in war is at the mercy of the attacker and will become either slaves of the attacker or destroyed.

    Jesus only meant his turn the other cheek saying to refer to civil matte ...[text shortened]... would also recommend this action in a war. So maybe we should let Judge Judy decide the issue.
    You are correct that it is a spiritual war. So here is the confusion you project. You say it's spiritual but yet you would fight in a physical war, right? Isn't that going beyond what the scripture you just quoted is saying?

    Also I can't see where you commented on my post about innocent ones being killed in wars, and maybe even in a war you participated in. Is that not murder if you pulled the trigger that sent that bomb over to their side and killed those innocent civilians?
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    16 Nov '12 15:37
    Originally posted by galveston75
    You are correct that it is a spiritual war. So here is the confusion you project. You say it's spiritual but yet you would fight in a physical war, right? Isn't that going beyond what the scripture you just quoted is saying?

    Also I can't see where you commented on my post about innocent ones being killed in wars, and maybe even in a war you participa ...[text shortened]... ulled the trigger that sent that bomb over to their side and killed those innocent civilians?
    if a man has a group of 10 people rigged to bomb 'a' and 1,000,000 people rigged to bomb 'b'. he hands you the detonator for bomb 'a' and says if you detonate it he will release the people rigged to bomb 'b' if you dont he will detonate bomb 'b' and release the group rigged to 'a'. you know 100% that he is telling the truth.

    what would you do?
  13. Standard membergalveston75
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    16 Nov '12 16:21
    Originally posted by stellspalfie
    if a man has a group of 10 people rigged to bomb 'a' and 1,000,000 people rigged to bomb 'b'. he hands you the detonator for bomb 'a' and says if you detonate it he will release the people rigged to bomb 'b' if you dont he will detonate bomb 'b' and release the group rigged to 'a'. you know 100% that he is telling the truth.

    what would you do?
    What? What a silly and unrealistic question to come up with. I'm not even going to start this as I know it will go on and on with more "what if" questions.
  14. Standard memberRJHinds
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    16 Nov '12 17:53
    Originally posted by galveston75
    You are correct that it is a spiritual war. So here is the confusion you project. You say it's spiritual but yet you would fight in a physical war, right? Isn't that going beyond what the scripture you just quoted is saying?

    Also I can't see where you commented on my post about innocent ones being killed in wars, and maybe even in a war you participa ...[text shortened]... ulled the trigger that sent that bomb over to their side and killed those innocent civilians?
    I have quoted you a verse in which Jesus said his servants would fight to free him if his kingdom was in this physical world. When Christ returns in His glory to take over this physical world, then his sevants will fight with Him. However, it is up to us to contend for the faith in this physical world until His return. We have not been taken out of this physical world like Jesus has, so we must fight as it becomes necessary.

    HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Holy! Holy! Holy!
  15. Standard membergalveston75
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    16 Nov '12 22:06
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    I have quoted you a verse in which Jesus said his servants would fight to free him if his kingdom was in this physical world. When Christ returns in His glory to take over this physical world, then his sevants will fight with Him. However, it is up to us to contend for the faith in this physical world until His return. We have not been taken out of this ph ...[text shortened]... , so we must fight as it becomes necessary.

    HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Holy! Holy! Holy!
    And of course you still didn't answer my question. I take that to mean you have no answer because of the implications?
    And exactly where in the Bible does it say his followers will fight for the kingdom here on earth?
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