1. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    The Axe man
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    26 Dec '10 23:08
    Originally posted by josephw
    The "sound" you hear isn't judgmentalism, it's the sound of confidence.

    It makes people uncomfortable when confronted with the truth.

    That statement alone will unsettle most folks. They say, " how can you be so sure? What makes you think you know the truth and others don't? And so on.


    Romans 10:13-15

    [b]For whosoever shall call upon the name o ...[text shortened]... at? Believe God or believe yourself. Follow God or follow your own way. It's your choice.
    Because I try not to maintain the separation between man and God, I follow my own way which I am trying to allign with God's way.

    I suspect you get your nickers in a knot because I seem to be arrogant towards all that JC supposedly did for us. Trust me, I have thought about it long and hard and have reached my conclusions a long time ago.

    Does that sound confident too? Are we both making the same mistakes? 🙂
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    26 Dec '10 23:39
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    As far as i am aware the Catholic church does not ordain females as priests, it must have been a minister that you have visited, not to make confession as i wrongly assumed, but simply to talk.
    You wrongly assumed that I visited a catolic female priest. You're right in this.
    Who is talking about a confession? Not me.
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    27 Dec '10 00:061 edit
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    You wrongly assumed that I visited a catolic female priest. You're right in this.
    Who is talking about a confession? Not me.
    You stated priest. As far as i am aware their are no other Christian religions in Sweden that have priests, perhaps you can name one?
  4. Standard membergalveston75
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    27 Dec '10 01:251 edit
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    I've found christian men to be preachy and "down looking" on me.
    So much is said in the body language. They say they care for me and that Jesus loves me, (they wouldn't say THEY like or love me, I bet), but I just get a whole heap of nonsense in the end. Sometimes they have their women or wives present. The women just stay in the background, not wanti tween chrsitan males and females, or do I just keep running into the wrong christian men?
    How Do God and Christ View Women?

    How can we have a complete picture of how Jehovah God views women? One way is to examine the attitude and conduct of Jesus Christ, who is “the image of the invisible God” and who reflects perfectly God’s view of matters. (Colossians 1:15) The dealings Jesus had with the women of his day show that Jehovah and Jesus respect women and that they certainly do not approve of the oppressive treatment that is so common in many lands today.
    Consider, for example, the occasion when Jesus spoke to a woman at a well. “A woman of Samaria came to draw water,” says John’s Gospel account, and “Jesus said to her: ‘Give me a drink.’” Jesus was willing to talk with a Samaritan woman in public, even though most Jews had no dealings with Samaritans. According to The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, for Jews “conversation with a woman in a public place was particularly scandalous.” Jesus, however, treated women with respect and consideration and was neither racially prejudiced nor gender prejudiced. On the contrary, it was to the Samaritan woman that Jesus for the first time plainly identified himself as the Messiah.—John 4:7-9, 25, 26.
    On another occasion Jesus was approached by a woman who for 12 years had been suffering from an embarrassing and debilitating flow of blood. When she touched him, she was instantly healed. “Jesus turned around and, noticing her, said: ‘Take courage, daughter; your faith has made you well.’” (Matthew 9:22) According to the Mosaic Law, a woman in her condition was not supposed to be in a crowd of people, let alone touch others. Yet, Jesus did not berate her. Rather, he compassionately comforted her and addressed her as “daughter.” How that word must have put her heart at ease! And how happy Jesus must have been to cure her!
    After Jesus was resurrected, his first appearance was to Mary Magdalene and another of his disciples, whom the Bible refers to as “the other Mary.” Jesus could have appeared first to Peter, John, or one of the other male disciples. Instead, he dignified women by allowing them to be the first eyewitnesses of his resurrection. An angel instructed them to inform Jesus’ male disciples about this astonishing event. Jesus said to the women: “Go, report to my brothers.” (Matthew 28:1, 5-10) Jesus was certainly not affected by the prejudices common to Jews of his day, according to which women could not serve as legal witnesses.
    So, far from being biased against women or condoning chauvinistic attitudes toward them in any way, Jesus showed that he respected and appreciated women. Violence against them was completely contrary to what Jesus taught, and his attitude, we can be sure, was a perfect reflection of the way his Father, Jehovah, sees things.

    Women Under Divine Care

    “Nowhere in the ancient Mediterranean or Near East were women accorded the freedom that they enjoy in modern Western society. The general pattern was one of subordination of women to men, just as slaves were subordinate to the free, and young to old. . . . Male children were more highly esteemed than female, and baby girls were sometimes left to die by exposure.” That is how one Bible dictionary describes the prevailing attitude toward females in ancient times. In many cases, they were almost put on the same level as slaves.
    The Bible was written at a time when customs reflected this attitude. Even so, divine law as expressed in the Bible showed a high regard for women, which was in marked contrast with the attitudes of many ancient cultures.
    Jehovah’s concern for the welfare of women is evident from the several instances in which he acted in behalf of his female worshippers. Twice he intervened to protect Abraham’s beautiful wife, Sarah, from being violated. (Genesis 12:14-20; 20:1-7) God showed favor to Jacob’s less-loved wife, Leah, by ‘opening her womb,’ so that she bore a son. (Genesis 29:31, 32) When two God-fearing Israelite midwives risked their lives to preserve Hebrew male children from infanticide in Egypt, Jehovah appreciatively “presented them with families.” (Exodus 1:17, 20, 21) He also answered Hannah’s fervent prayer. (1 Samuel 1:10, 20) And when the widow of a prophet faced a creditor who was about to take her children as slaves to pay off her debt, Jehovah did not leave her in the lurch. Lovingly, God enabled the prophet Elisha to multiply her supply of oil so that she could pay the debt and still have sufficient oil for her family. She thus preserved her family and her dignity.—Exodus 22:22, 23; 2 Kings 4:1-7.
    The prophets repeatedly condemned the exploitation of women or the use of violence against them. The prophet Jeremiah told the Israelites in Jehovah’s name: “Render justice and righteousness, and deliver the one that is being robbed out of the hand of the defrauder; and do not maltreat any alien resident, fatherless boy or widow. Do them no violence. And do not shed any innocent blood in this place.” (Jeremiah 22:2, 3) Later, the rich and powerful in Israel were condemned because they had evicted women from their homes and mistreated their children. (Micah 2:9) The God of justice sees and condemns as evil such suffering caused to women and their children.

    The “Capable Wife”

    An appropriate view of a capable wife is presented by the ancient writer of the Proverbs. Since this beautiful description of the role and the status of a wife was included in Jehovah’s Word, we can be sure that he approves of it. Far from being oppressed or being viewed as inferior, such a woman is appreciated, respected, and trusted.
    The “capable wife” of Proverbs chapter 31 is a vigorous and industrious worker. She works hard at what is “the delight of her hands” and engages in trade and even real estate transactions. She sees a field and proceeds to buy it. She makes undergarments and sells them. She gives belts to the tradesmen. She is vigorous in her strength and activity. Moreover, her words of wisdom and her loving-kindness are greatly appreciated. As a result, she is highly esteemed by her husband, by her sons and, most important, by Jehovah.
    Women are not to be the oppressed victims of men who take advantage of them, mistreat them, or subject them to abuse of any kind. Instead, the married woman is to be the happy and accomplished “complement” of her husband.—Genesis 2:18.

    Assign Them Honor

    When writing to Christian husbands about how they should treat their wives, the inspired writer Peter urged husbands to imitate the attitudes of Jehovah and Jesus Christ. “You husbands, continue . . . assigning them honor,” he wrote. (1 Peter 3:7) Assigning honor to a person implies that one values and respects such a one highly. Thus, the man who honors his wife does not humiliate her, downgrade her, or treat her violently. Rather, he demonstrates by his words and his deeds—in public and in private—that he cherishes and loves her.
    Honoring one’s wife certainly contributes to happiness in a marriage. Consider the example of Carlos and Cecilia. At a certain point in their married life, they often found themselves arguing without ever coming to a conclusion. At times, they just stopped talking to each other. They did not know how to resolve their problems. He was aggressive; she was demanding and proud. When they began studying the Bible and applying what they learned, however, things began to improve. Cecilia observes: “I realize that Jesus’ teachings and the example he left have transformed my personality and also my husband’s. Thanks to Jesus’ example, I have become more humble and understanding. I have learned to seek Jehovah’s help in prayer, as Jesus did. Carlos has learned to become more tolerant and show more self-control—to honor his wife as Jehovah desires.”
    Their marriage is not perfect, but it has stood the test of time. In recent years they have had to face serious difficulties—Carlos lost his job and had to undergo surgery for cancer. Yet, these upheavals have not shaken their marriage bond, which has grown even stronger.
    Since mankind’s fall into imperfection, women in many cultures have been treated dishonorably. They have been physically, mentally, and sexually abused. But that is not the treatment Jehovah intended for them. The Bible record clearly shows that no matter what cultural views may prevail, all women should be treated with honor and respect. It is their God-given due.
  5. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    The Axe man
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    27 Dec '10 07:46
    Originally posted by galveston75
    How Do God and Christ View Women?

    How can we have a complete picture of how Jehovah God views women? One way is to examine the attitude and conduct of Jesus Christ, who is “the image of the invisible God” and who reflects perfectly God’s view of matters. (Colossians 1:15) The dealings Jesus had with the women of his day show that Jehovah and Jesus res ...[text shortened]... iews may prevail, all women should be treated with honor and respect. It is their God-given due.
    Thnx for the reply. Though I find it a bit off topic , I guess you could say it comes under the heading of "christian women", but not really reflecting the op.
    But hey, with all the hijacking of threads around here its all good.

    I sometimes wonder why you guys always refer to biblical examples? Are those elderly ladies, that were in such praise of Jesus and shone a fine light on christianity, not good enough examples?
    Do modern people not count as examples of christian living?
    You know what I mean?
    It seems if you say something good, die a "meaningful death", and have lived over 100 years ago , then your example is somehow more valid than someone alive today.
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    27 Dec '10 08:01
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    You stated priest. As far as i am aware their are no other Christian religions in Sweden that have priests, perhaps you can name one?
    How about the Svenska Kyrkan?
    You really have to do some research before you take a fight over a insignificant silly question.
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    27 Dec '10 14:172 edits
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    How about the Svenska Kyrkan?
    You really have to do some research before you take a fight over a insignificant silly question.
    Perhaps if you used the correct terminology when you are in the spirituality forum people would not get the wrong impression! I have a zillion other things id rather be doing than fighting you.
  8. Standard membergalveston75
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    27 Dec '10 16:11
    Originally posted by karoly aczel
    Thnx for the reply. Though I find it a bit off topic , I guess you could say it comes under the heading of "christian women", but not really reflecting the op.
    But hey, with all the hijacking of threads around here its all good.

    I sometimes wonder why you guys always refer to biblical examples? Are those elderly ladies, that were in such praise of J ...[text shortened]... lived over 100 years ago , then your example is somehow more valid than someone alive today.
    Well I'm not trying to high jack anything here but we as humans should look to the past at times to see examples of how, for example Jesus viewed and taught Christians how we all should treat and honor each other. Perhaps the men you've met at some churches have missed this point from Jesus.
    And yes there are millions of women alive today that are extremely fine examples of humanity with wonderful qualities. But one would be foolish not to look to the Bible for God's guidance on such issues as respecting women....
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    27 Dec '10 17:53
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Perhaps if you used the correct terminology when you are in the spirituality forum people would not get the wrong impression! I have a zillion other things id rather be doing than fighting you.
    The correct terminology for the Svenska Kyrkan is "Präst". I translated it rather correctly to 'priest'. If you think you know Swedish better than me, and the terminology for the Svenska Kyrkan better, then, just say so. Don't pretend you know better the terminology than a member of the Svenska Kyrkan, don't pretend you know how to translate the Swedish terminology than someone who is totally fluently in Swedish.
    Don't pretend, it is not suitable to a christian.

    Back to topic. Every church discriminating women is an inferiour church. Go ask a female elder about it and tell us the answer.
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    27 Dec '10 18:20
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    The correct terminology for the Svenska Kyrkan is "Präst". I translated it rather correctly to 'priest'. If you think you know Swedish better than me, and the terminology for the Svenska Kyrkan better, then, just say so. Don't pretend you know better the terminology than a member of the Svenska Kyrkan, don't pretend you know how to translate the Swedish t ...[text shortened]... ting women is an inferiour church. Go ask a female elder about it and tell us the answer.
    we don't have female elders for there is no biblical provision for such, perhaps you can show us one? If not then perhaps you can shut your mouth?
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    27 Dec '10 19:18
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    we don't have female elders for there is no biblical provision for such, perhaps you can show us one? If not then perhaps you can shut your mouth?
    Now you become insultive. Again. You tend to be like that when you know that you are wrong.

    So JW discriminate half of the worlds population and think everything is okay? JW thinks that women are inferiour people?
    Just for information - we don't live in the biblical times anymore. We are modern people. Perhaps not JW but christian people in large.
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    27 Dec '10 19:323 edits
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    Now you become insultive. Again. You tend to be like that when you know that you are wrong.

    So JW discriminate half of the worlds population and think everything is okay? JW thinks that women are inferiour people?
    Just for information - we don't live in the biblical times anymore. We are modern people. Perhaps not JW but christian people in large.
    i repeat the question, which part of scripture gives details for the ordination of females to roles as Elders, for the Bible is quite specific in that regard, if you cannot answer then you are guilty of trying to establish your own code of ethics, an act of self righteousness, independent from the word of God and in no sense of the word can you claim to be any type of Christian, for Christ based his teachings on the Word of God.

    Your assertion that we do not live in Biblical times is pure nonsense, for principles transcend time! perhaps you should have thought of that prior to your assertion! But nooo you are seeking to establish your own sense of what is right and wrong regardless of what is contained in scripture, hardly Christian , is it?
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    27 Dec '10 19:56
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    i repeat the question, which part of scripture gives details for the ordination of females to roles as Elders, for the Bible is quite specific in that regard, if you cannot answer then you are guilty of trying to establish your own code of ethics, an act of self righteousness, independent from the word of God and in no sense of the word can you claim ...[text shortened]... what is right and wrong regardless of what is contained in scripture, hardly Christian , is it?
    Jesus gave the news of his resurrection to a woman. He didn't tell her to go find a man to deliver the news to, he asked her to deliver the news herself to the apostoles. Jesus didn't differ man from woman. He saw them as equals. There are more notions about women superiority. But them you have to find yourself.

    Back to your question "If I cannot find any elders in the bible, then I am wrong."
    I ask you: Do you drive a car? (or anyone in the JW?) Then it is a sin. Because nowhere it says in the bible that driving a car is permitted. So therefore a true christian shouldn't drive a car. Driving a car should be considered a sin.

    No, of course not. Driving cars in the bible, and having a woman as an elder is not (if you are right in this) is not mentionned. This does not mean that it should be forbidden to drive cars or have women as elders.

    Denying the right to women to be an elder is just plain women discrimination. It is not christian, it is against the word of Jesus. It is as bad as discrimination of black people, homosexual people, people of other religions, discrimination is bad. JW is known to discriminate groups of other people, it is not christian good behaviour.

    Whenever I tell you that you are wrong, you tend to be sour and start to insult. Don't do that. It is not friendly. This is a debate. Sometimes you teach me things I didn't know before, and sometimes I teach you things that you didn't know before. This is a debate where we both learn things. Nothing bad with this. Learning is good!

    In this later part of the thread you have learnt that in Sweden we have female priests. It didn't heart you. And I learn every day what you and JW thinks of things. Learning is good!
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    27 Dec '10 20:051 edit
    Originally posted by FabianFnas
    Jesus gave the news of his resurrection to a woman. He didn't tell her to go find a man to deliver the news to, he asked her to deliver the news herself to the apostoles. Jesus didn't differ man from woman. He saw them as equals. There are more notions about women superiority. But them you have to find yourself.

    Back to your question "If I cannot find 't heart you. And I learn every day what you and JW thinks of things. Learning is good!
    a simple reference to any scripture which states that females should qualify as elders and what those qualifications are, if you could just provide one, that would be sufficient, rather than all the bumf! I see that you cannot, how predictable!

    It being plainly obvious that you cannot and that we in following the Biblical precedent are in no way discriminatory against females than females are in having ladies only nights at the local swimming baths, who knows, perhaps you might qualify for that, or would you also accuse them of discriminating against you because you are a male?
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    27 Dec '10 22:54
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    a simple reference to any scripture which states that females should qualify as elders and what those qualifications are, if you could just provide one, that would be sufficient, rather than all the bumf! I see that you cannot, how predictable!

    It being plainly obvious that you cannot and that we in following the Biblical precedent are in no way ...[text shortened]... fy for that, or would you also accuse them of discriminating against you because you are a male?
    You tell me where in the bible driving of cars is permitted, and I will not criticize you or any other JWer to drive cars. (Love to play the game by your rules! 🙂 )

    If you say you don't discriminate women in JW, and equal women with men, then whow me one female elder in JW and I change my opinon about discrimination within JW immediately.

    Until then I will continue to see JW as discriminating women, as you've already shown me that you do with homosexual people. JW is in its very foundation discriminative against gropus of people. Discrimination per se is not according to the word of Jesus and not a very christian behaviour.

    I am glad that you take this debate serious and not fall into insulting behaviour. I am not here to say that you are wrong, I am here to learn.
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