Christianity: Obstacle to reason?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
You've really confused me here.

It's really quite simple.

It is your contention that Jesus means that bad trees only produce bad fruit
(and good trees only produce good fruit).

Jesus also says that the wicked do good things for their children.

This contradicts your contention.

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
It's really quite simple.

It is your contention that Jesus means that bad trees only produce bad fruit
(and good trees only produce good fruit).

Jesus also says that the wicked do good things for their children.

This contradicts your contention.

Nemesio

Jesus explicitly states what he states.

Maybe if you better explained what all that "rhetorical question" stuff means, I'd have some idea what meaning you assign to Matthew 7:18. You say you don't think it means what it says, but you don't really explicitly state what you think Jesus is actually saying. The same with 7:16. Better yet, perhaps if you explained what you believe to be the meaning 7:15-19 on a verse by verse basis, I'll have some idea.

From what I can tell, you've taken a single verse out of context from a passage meant to explain the Golden Rule and have tried to apply it to a completely separate passage about being able to recognize false prophets. It seems likely that you've assigned the out context verse a meaning that wasn't intended. It seems that's much more likely than an explicit statement was some sort of phantom "rhetorical question".

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Jesus explicitly states what he states.

Maybe if you better explained what all that "rhetorical question" stuff means, I'd have some idea what meaning you assign to Matthew 7:18. You say you don't think it means what it says, but you don't really explicitly state what you think Jesus is actually saying. The same with 7:16. Better yet, perhaps if you ex ...[text shortened]... re likely than an explicit statement was some sort of phantom "rhetorical question".

So, wicked people can't do good?

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
So, wicked people can't do good?

Nemesio

I know I've explained the Luke passage on a verse by verse basis and I think I've probably explained the Matthew passage as well, though maybe not the entire thing.

Quite frankly, I don't think you can do it without pretty much tossing out a couple of verses. I'm thinking that if you at least attempt this exercise, you'll see that you need to completely rethink it.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I know I've explained the Luke passage on a verse by verse basis and I think I've probably explained the Matthew passage as well, though maybe not the entire thing.

Quite frankly, I don't think you can do it without pretty much tossing out a couple of verses. I'm thinking that if you at least attempt this exercise, you'll see that you need to completely rethink it.

I wasn't clear on your 'yes or no' answer to my question.

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
I wasn't clear on your 'yes or no' answer to my question.

Nemesio

Your question is irrelevant. What's relevant is what Jesus said and what He meant by what He said. That's what we're discussing here, isn't it? Jesus said what He said and you continue to refuse to deal with it.

Like I said:
"You say you don't think it means what it says, but you don't really explicitly state what you think Jesus is actually saying. The same with 7:16. Better yet, perhaps if you explained what you believe to be the meaning 7:15-19 on a verse by verse basis, I'll have some idea.

I know I've explained the Luke passage on a verse by verse basis and I think I've probably explained the Matthew passage as well, though maybe not the entire thing.

Quite frankly, I don't think you can do it without pretty much tossing out a couple of verses. I'm thinking that if you at least attempt this exercise, you'll see that you need to completely rethink it."

I'm thinking you know that your interpretation of the passage lacks integrity within itself and that's why you continue to decline to state what you believe each verse means and the relationship between the verses. It's only five verses. Surely you believe Jesus was capable of stringing together five verses into a single coherent passage. The problem is that with your reading it doesn't cohere.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Your question is irrelevant. What's relevant is what Jesus said and what He meant by what He said. That's what we're discussing here, isn't it? Jesus said what He said and you continue to refuse to deal with it.

Like I said:
"You say you don't think it means what it says, but you don't really explicitly state what you think Jesus is actually saying. T ...[text shortened]... gle coherent passage. The problem is that with your reading it doesn't cohere.

I'm trying to be clear on what you think He said.

Can bad trees produce good fruit?

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
I'm trying to be clear on what you think He said.

Can bad trees produce good fruit?

Nemesio

I posted this earlier and I've reiterated it several times. How many times do I need to say it.

"Luke 6:43-44
"For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit. 44 For each tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush."

This is the basically the same metaphor told in a different sequence. There is a logical progression here. There isn't a "good tree" that yields "bad fruit". There isn' a "bad tree" that yields "good fruit". This is because EACH TREE is known by its OWN FRUIT. Jesus then gives the concrete examples of "EACH TREE / OWN FRUIT" with "figs" don't come from thorn trees and "grapes" don't come from briar bushes. Like I said earlier, Jesus is defining "good fruit" by the type of fruit which comes from a specific type of tree. I don't understand how you fail to see this."

The same applies to Matthew since it's essentially the same metaphor. How is this not clear? How many times to I need to say it?

EDIT: The use of bold/italics in the commentary corresponds to lines in the passage if this isn't clear. It's pretty simple. Now please do something similar with Matthew 7:15-19.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I posted this earlier and I've reiterated it several times. How many times do I need to say it.

What you haven't done is answer my question directly.

Yes or no: According to your interpretation of Jesus' view, can bad trees produce good fruit?

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
What you haven't done is answer my question directly.

Yes or no: According to your interpretation of Jesus' view, can bad trees produce good fruit?

Nemesio

I've stated my position several times. I reposted it above. I can't believe that you are really so dense that you can't comprehend my position from my previous post. So I have to believe that you're just messing with me. If you don't want to continue this discussion, just say so instead of playing this childish game.

It's discussions like this that lead me to ask:
"Does this ultimately make it impossible for [many Christians] to have a rational discussion about their beliefs?"

Originally posted by Nemesio
What you haven't done is answer my question directly.

Yes or no: According to your interpretation of Jesus' view, can bad trees produce good fruit?

Nemesio

NO! Now...stop having a tantrum! That is what I think of every time I see that little caricature on your ID stamping its foot and waving its arms around.....very appropriate.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I've stated my position several times. I reposted it above. I can't believe that you are really so dense that you can't comprehend my position from my previous post. So I have to believe that you're just messing with me. If you don't want to continue this discussion, just say so instead of playing this childish game.

It's discussions like this that lea ...[text shortened]... it impossible for [many Christians] to have a rational discussion about their beliefs?"

Jesus Christ. Would you quit embarrassing yourself and just answer the goddamn question?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I've stated my position several times. I reposted it above.

You've stated an equivocal position. By answering the question, you solidify it and allow me to
proceed. By not answering it, you keep the conversation going around in circles. So, if you are
genuinely interested in having a rational discussion about faith, you'll answer it.

Yes or no: According to your interpretation of Jesus' view, can bad trees produce good fruit?

Nemesio

Originally posted by Nemesio
You've stated an equivocal position. By answering the question, you solidify it and allow me to
proceed. By not answering it, you keep the conversation going around in circles. So, if you are
genuinely interested in having a rational discussion about faith, you'll answer it.

Yes or no: According to your interpretation of Jesus' view, can bad trees produce good fruit?

Nemesio

I'm not interested in going around in circles. I'm also not interested in having to restate something that I've restated numerous times. I'm also not interested in playing the "proper analysis" game either. You can play that game with others if you so desire. You know what I mean and are just being difficult. Ale1552 seemed to understand my position without a problem.

Quite frankly, this just seems a way for you to avoid explicitly stating the meanings and relationships of the verses in Matthew 7:15-19. I think you know that your interpretation doesn't hold up. You've been avoiding it for some time now.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I'm not interested in going around in circles. I'm also not interested in having to restate something that I've restated numerous times. I'm also not interested in playing the "proper analysis" game either. You can play that game with others if you so desire. You know what I mean and are just being difficult. Ale1552 seemed to understand my position witho ...[text shortened]... now that your interpretation doesn't hold up. You've been avoiding it for some time now.

We could go in a straight line if you want. Just answer the question. Or are you unable to have
a rational discussion about faith?

I can answer the same question. The answer is 'yes.' This is also Jesus' answer.

What's your answer?

Nemesio