Originally posted by twhiteheadCertainly people can change and change multiple times.
In the analogy of a tree producing diseased or non diseased fruit, I would agree that there would be exceptions to the rule, though with some diseases once a tree is infected the vast majority of its fruit are infected, and an uninfected tree may remain totally disease free.
With the other analogy of trees bearing figs or thistles, clearly there are no e ...[text shortened]... or a good tree, or are there in betweens? Can people change, and can they change multiple times?
Something to consider is that Jesus teaches that one has to BECOME righteous to have "eternal life" / "salvation" / "heaven". So it really isn't about ACTING more and more righteous, but actually BEING righteous. Hence His use of dichotomies such as "dark vs. light", "death vs. life", "slave vs. free", etc. He continued in this vein with ""good tree vs. bad tree", as in fig tree vs. thorn tree.
John 12:35-36
So Jesus said to them, "For a little while longer the Light is among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes. 36 While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light."
Matthew 5:48
"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
The rationalizations used by so many Christians to abandon these teachings of Jesus speak to the topic of this thread.
I have looked in on this debate with some interest.
I have one possible disagreement with Nemesio: I sometimes wonder if Jesus was perhaps a “towney” who didn’t entirely “get” the full implications of his own metaphors.
Do thistles bear fruit? What kind? Can thistle-fruit be deemed “bad” because it is not fig-fruit? Of course, fig-fruit is edible, and thistle fruit may not be. Thistle-fruit may not be edible for humans, but it may serve the purpose of growing new thistles. (And I have heard of thistle-tea.)
I have a real-world experience (which does not reflect well on myself) in this regard:
I bought two trees whose attached labels said “plum tree.” A (more knowledgeable) friend of mine looked at the two trees, after I had planted them, and said, pointing to one: “That’s a peach tree.”
I said: “No, see the labels: they’re both plum trees.”
He said: “Did you notice that the leaves are a bit different?”
But, they were young trees, and it was difficult (for us) to tell, so we decided to wait until the trees bore fruit.
As it turns out—one of them is a peach tree.
Now, I do, in fact have fruit trees. We have gotten good harvests this year from our apple trees and peach trees. Our cherry trees were a bit sparse. (Our sole plum tree did okay, considering.)
I can testify for a fact that a really good apple tree will produce some “bad”, shriveled, marred, inedible apples. Etc. I would be a fool to cut down such a tree (apple or peach or whatever).
So, I have two choices: I can either think that what Jesus meant was similar to my “label versus the real fruit” scenario—or I can conclude that he really was a towney who tried to draw metaphors that any horticulturalist would scoff at.
By the way, if I have a fairly good-bearing tree, I may discard the bad fruit (although the deer and other creatures may eat it and so I will just leave it)—I will not destroy the tree.
Originally posted by twhiteheadBe careful , he might need to look within himself to answer that one.
In the analogy of a tree producing diseased or non diseased fruit, I would agree that there would be exceptions to the rule, though with some diseases once a tree is infected the vast majority of its fruit are infected, and an uninfected tree may remain totally disease free.
With the other analogy of trees bearing figs or thistles, clearly there are no e ...[text shortened]... or a good tree, or are there in betweens? Can people change, and can they change multiple times?