Christianity: Obstacle to reason?

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30 Sep '08 18:32

ThinkOfOne
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30 Sep '08 18:322 edits
For many Christians, their core beliefs require them to hold contradictory beliefs. From discussions I've had with many of them, it is apparent that they don't see a problem with this. This sets the bar exceedingly low when it comes to logic and reason. For them, a "belief" is true even though reason dictates otherwise. Does this ultimately make it impossible for them to have a rational discussion about their beliefs?

For instance:
Many seem to believe that sin is being "apart from God" and also believe that they are "abiding in God" despite the fact that they continue to sin. Hence they believe that they are both "apart from God" and "abiding in God".

Many seem to believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God despite that fact that the Bible is filled with contradictions.

etc.
Badwater
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30 Sep '08 19:10
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
For many Christians, their core beliefs require them to hold contradictory beliefs. From discussions I've had with many of them, it is apparent that they don't see a problem with this. This sets the bar exceedingly low when it comes to logic and reason. For them, a "belief" is true even though reason dictates otherwise. Does this ultimately make it impossible for them to have a rational discussion about their beliefs?

....
For plenary believers, yes.
ThinkOfOne
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30 Sep '08 19:511 edit
Originally posted by Badwater
For plenary believers, yes.
What do you see on on either side of the dividing line?
jaywill
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30 Sep '08 22:171 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
For many Christians, their core beliefs require them to hold contradictory beliefs. From discussions I've had with many of them, it is apparent that they don't see a problem with this. This sets the bar exceedingly low when it comes to logic and reason. For them, a "belief" is true even though reason dictates otherwise. Does this ultimately make it imposs word of God despite that fact that the Bible is filled with contradictions.

etc.
A bird has two wings. It needs both to fly.

A coin has two sides.

Many biblical truths have two sides to them. Some truths cannot exist unless there are two sides to it. A bird cannot fly with one wing. Some Bible truths need two aspects in order to exist.

There is hardly any totally satisfactory way to explain, for instance, the Trinity.

That God is three and one is a paradox and a logical contradiction. Smarter minds than ours have contemplated this mystery for two millennia.

Regardless, we can enjoy and experience the Father - Son - Holy Spirit even though we find it practically impossible to explain fully the Trinity.

I welcome the contradictions. I enjoy some of the contradictions. And I am alternately amused and feel pity for those who do not partake of the enjoyment of God as a living Person because of being hung up on some paradoxical statements in the 66 books of the Bible.

Feed your spiritual hunger and receive Jesus into your heart. Some things will be reconciled as you grow in the knowledge and experience of Christ and God.
Rajk999
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30 Sep '08 22:35
Originally posted by jaywill
... That God is three ....
DE 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is ONE LORD:

ZEC 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be ONE LORD, and his name one.

MR 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is ONE LORD:

1CO 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and ONE LORD Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

EPH 4:5 ONE LORD, one faith, one baptism,
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30 Sep '08 23:072 edits
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
For many Christians, their core beliefs require them to hold contradictory beliefs. From discussions I've had with many of them, it is apparent that they don't see a problem with this. This sets the bar exceedingly low when it comes to logic and reason. For them, a "belief" is true even though reason dictates otherwise. Does this ultimately make it imposs word of God despite that fact that the Bible is filled with contradictions.

etc.
I doubt that Christians who make those remarks really perceive them as contradictions. Saying "I abide in God" is probably a metaphor for saying "I feel God's grace" (which might be a metaphor for something else...).
ThinkOfOne
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30 Sep '08 23:272 edits
Originally posted by Conrau K
I doubt that Christians who make those remarks really perceive them as contradictions. Saying "I abide in God" is probably a metaphor for saying "I feel God's grace" (which might be a metaphor for something else...).
Evidently you didn't read jaywill's post above.

As for those who don't "really perceive them as contradictions", you have to question their ability to reason if they are unable to perceive contradictions.

What does it mean to "abide in God"?
1 John 3:4 -9:
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
PinkFloyd
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30 Sep '08 23:34
Originally posted by Conrau K
I doubt that Christians who make those remarks really perceive them as contradictions. Saying "I abide in God" is probably a metaphor for saying "I feel God's grace" (which might be a metaphor for something else...).
Exactly, with Grace being the key word. My beliefs (and I rhink many Protestant mainline denominations) are that we can not achieve righteous perfection (and yes, this comes from Paul--I'm not comfortable cutting out everything Paul wrote from my Bible). We are to live lives that are as close to Christ as we can. We will fail and sin and make mistakes. We then repent and God is quick to forgive us, if we but accept Christ as our only hope for salvation. Yeah--I know--it's Pauline, and it may seem 'cheap" and too good to be true, etc. But hey--I'm just answering the question as best I know how, 🙂
ThinkOfOne
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30 Sep '08 23:451 edit
Originally posted by PinkFloyd
Exactly, with Grace being the key word. My beliefs (and I rhink many Protestant mainline denominations) are that we can not achieve righteous perfection (and yes, this comes from Paul--I'm not comfortable cutting out everything Paul wrote from my Bible). We are to live lives that are as close to Christ as we can. We will fail and sin and make mistakes. too good to be true, etc. But hey--I'm just answering the question as best I know how, 🙂
What do you do with 1 John 3:4-9 above?

Or what Jesus said below?
John 15:7-11
7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. 9 Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love"
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01 Oct '08 00:52
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Evidently you didn't read jaywill's post above.

As for those who don't "really perceive them as contradictions", you have to question their ability to reason if they are unable to perceive contradictions.

What does it mean to "abide in God"?
1 John 3:4 -9:
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the ...[text shortened]... commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
As for those who don't "really perceive them as contradictions", you have to question their ability to reason if they are unable to perceive contradictions.

It depends on how you interpret the two statements. I can say "I am and am not hungry" and this may not be a contradiction if I am hungry in one way and not in another (for example, I might be spiritually hungry but physically satisfied.) So when a normal Christian says "I abide in God" and "God is apart from me", they may mean two very different things which are not incompatible.

And obviously when a Christian claims to abide in God, they would not mean that they are abide in God like a house or building. Given that only Jesus has a body, it would be very strange indeed to say that they abide in God in a literal sense. It is clearly a metaphorical expression to signify a close relationship with God in some sense. A Christian, such as myself, might say that they have a close relationship with God through grace; yet, God remains far apart because I am a sinner and cannot contradict Him. This is not a contradiction.
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01 Oct '08 00:55
Originally posted by PinkFloyd
Exactly, with Grace being the key word. My beliefs (and I rhink many Protestant mainline denominations) are that we can not achieve righteous perfection (and yes, this comes from Paul--I'm not comfortable cutting out everything Paul wrote from my Bible). We are to live lives that are as close to Christ as we can. We will fail and sin and make mistakes. ...[text shortened]... too good to be true, etc. But hey--I'm just answering the question as best I know how, 🙂
I think this is what mainline Christianity believes. It is not exclusively Protestant. God grants us grace, yet we often commit error. So we repent, seek forgiveness and resolve to follow Jesus more scrupulously.
ThinkOfOne
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01 Oct '08 01:02
Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]As for those who don't "really perceive them as contradictions", you have to question their ability to reason if they are unable to perceive contradictions.

It depends on how you interpret the two statements. I can say "I am and am not hungry" and this may not be a contradiction if I am hungry in one way and not in another (for example, I might be ...[text shortened]... far apart because I am a sinner and cannot contradict Him. This is not a contradiction.[/b]
lol. Good one.
jaywill
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01 Oct '08 01:35
Originally posted by Rajk999
DE 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is ONE LORD:

ZEC 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be ONE LORD, and his name one.

MR 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is ONE LORD:

1CO 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all ...[text shortened]... sus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

EPH 4:5 ONE LORD, one faith, one baptism,
"And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness ... And God created man in His own image ..." (Genesis 1:26a,27a)
whodey
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01 Oct '08 03:03
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
For many Christians, their core beliefs require them to hold contradictory beliefs. From discussions I've had with many of them, it is apparent that they don't see a problem with this. This sets the bar exceedingly low when it comes to logic and reason. For them, a "belief" is true even though reason dictates otherwise. Does this ultimately make it imposs ...[text shortened]... word of God despite that fact that the Bible is filled with contradictions.

etc.
The plan fact of the matter is that life seems full of contradictions. For example, why does it seem that you receive the most by giving? Why is it that atheists post in the spirituality forum? Why is it that they insist on shoving that white cotton ball inside the container that hold my vitamins that I take every day when it only becomes an obstacle for why I bought the darned thing in the first place which is to empty out vitamins?

I guess what I am saying is, a contradiction is only a contradiction only if you can't work out the reasons for the ones I have provided and this is based upon factors such as your intelligence, life experiences, knowledge, open mindedness etc. Of course there are "true" contradictions, however, just because you cannot work out a contradiction means that it does not exist, rather, it only means that you are unable to work it out.

As for myself, I recognize the fact that some things will seem as though they are contradictions ONLY because of my inability to work them out because my limited reasoning abilities, knowledge, and life experiences etc. For example, why does an all powerful God allow innocent children to suffer? Is it because he enjoys them suffering? I say no even though I may not completely be able to work out this seemingly unworkable equation.
Wulebgr
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01 Oct '08 03:071 edit
Originally posted by jaywill
"And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness ... And God created man in His own image ..." (Genesis 1:26a,27a)
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"And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness ... And God created man in His own image ..." (Genesis 1:26a,27a)

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[2.30] And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalif, they said: What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? He said: Surely I know what you do not know.
[2.31] And He taught Adam all the names, then presented them to the angels; then He said: Tell me the names of those if you are right.

[35.1] All praise is due to Allah, the Originator of the heavens and the earth, the Maker of the angels, messengers flying on wings, two, and three, and four; He increases in creation what He pleases; surely Allah has power over all things.
[35.2] Whatever Allah grants to men of (His) mercy, there is none to withhold it, and what He withholds there is none to send it forth after that, and He is the Mighty, the Wise