Originally posted by NemesioYes, and I agree.
Nemesio would never use the word 'born again' to describe a Biblically sound theological framework
because those words are the product of a poor translation. Nemesio has only used the words
'born again' in responses to people who use those translations in an effort to help them see how
such a translation is a poor one.
Nemesio would further contend th ...[text shortened]... n in every circumstance irrespective of the depth and
magnitude of their faith.
Nemesio
But on the grace side of the 'grace v works argument' as Epi calls it, there is the doctrine of guaranteed salvation ..ie.. once a believer is baptisted and he accepts Christ, he cannot loose his salvation, notwithstanding the absense of good works or even the presence of evil works. He is saved no matter what.
Do you subscribe to that view?
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Originally posted by NemesioWhich comes first, Faith or Obedience to Gods commands ?
....I... Who are people of faith? People who follow God's commands. What are God's commands? Love God and love your neighbor? How do you love your neighbor? By
being charitable.
It's that simple, if you follow Jesus' teachings.
Nemesio
Originally posted by Rajk999The Bible does not teach that view. Just as a person can come to believe in the last moments
But on the grace side of the 'grace v works argument' as Epi calls it, there is the doctrine of guaranteed salvation ..ie.. once a believer is baptisted and he accepts Christ, he cannot loose his salvation, notwithstanding the absense of good works or even the presence of evil works. He is saved no matter what.
Do you subscribe to that view?
of his life, so, too, can a believer reject God in the last moments of his life.
Naturally, the people who subscribe to the view you propose equivocate -- 'well, then they were
never really a believer in the first place,' they maintain for those who formerly 'had faith'
just as they believe they do. As a result, though, they have to admit that, since they cannot
tell the future, they cannot claim to know the 'salvation status' (whether a given individual
will be saved at the end of their lives) of anyone else since, at any moment, the other individual
can reject God and stymie their supposition. Neither can they know their 'salvation status' one
year from now; they can merely suppose it. How many evangelicals, though, speak passionately
about how they 'know' God' and 'know' they are saved only to recant some five years later?
If it's more than zero, then we can presume that anyone can fall off the wagon, so to speak.
The Bible does admit of a epiphanic moment, a 'coming to believe,' so to speak, a moment
in which the person asks, hears an answer, and responds. Seeing the Disciples themselves go
through these moments repeatedly -- moments of greatness followed by moments of folly --
ought to lead one to believe that a person who seeks to have a truly God-centered life is one
who has a series of these epiphanic moments. That is, through constant seeking, they come
to answers to which they respond and thus get closer to God. One of those moments can be
confession. Another of those moments might be baptism. Another might be the recognizing
of the 'Samaritan' in your life. Another might be how a certain set of behaviors you engage
in estrange you from God. And so on.
Salvation, as it were, is a constantly evolving process, one which a person of faith receives as
a gift. I don't see how a person of faith could claim to have a living faith with a single
epiphanic moment. Certainly, Jesus didn't say, 'Do this one thing, and you're all set.'
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioThanks for both your answers.
A comprehensive examination of the teachings of the Bible's authors ultimately does not
distinguish between these two concepts.
Nemesio
Maybe I should use the term 'declaration of faith'.
James 2 makes a distinction between faith ('declaration of faith' I presume) and works (obedience).
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOne========================================
[b]"The passage you cited addresses this, not the idea that one who sins cannot be saved."
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name c not do the will of God, i.e, work iniquity, will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.[/b]
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'
Those who do not do the will of God, i.e, work iniquity, will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
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See the Apostle Paul for an equivalent teaching:
"For this you realize, knowing that every fornicator or unclean person or greedy person (who is an idolater) HAS NO INHERITANCE IN THE KINGDOM OF CHRIST AND OF GOD." (Eph. 5:5, my emphasis)
Of course they knew and realized it either because they recalled it from Christ's teaching (as in Matthew) or from Paul's previously teaching them, or both.
And Paul follows on to add "Let no one deceive you with vain words, for because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience." (v.6)
Not much room to claim that Paul taught against Jesus here, eh?
The same concept from Paul is repeated in 1 Cor. 6:9 and Galatians 5:19-21
Above, entering into or inheriting the kingdom is smaller in scope that having eternal life.
We should not make read "enter the kingdom" or "inherit the kingdom" and substitute "have eternal life". The scope of the latter is larger than the scope of the former in this case.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOnePontifical Academy of Science:
For many Christians, their core beliefs require them to hold contradictory beliefs. From discussions I've had with many of them, it is apparent that they don't see a problem with this. This sets the bar exceedingly low when it comes to logic and reason. For them, a "belief" is true even though reason dictates otherwise. Does this ultimately make it imposs ...[text shortened]... word of God despite that fact that the Bible is filled with contradictions.
etc.
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_academies/acdscien/index.htm
Originally posted by Nemesio"If Jesus meant that utter sinlessness was the only standard by which a believer would be deemed 'faithful,' why didn't He say that? Was He such a poor teacher as to omit such an important concept?"
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]If that is what Jesus meant, why did He not just say so? So far as I know Jesus never said, "The occasional sin is okay, so long as you express regret". Was He such a poor teacher so as to omit such an important concept?
If Jesus meant that utter sinlessness was the only standard by which a believer would be ...[text shortened]... ion and
wisdom in order to minimize it in the future.
Nemesio[/b]
Jesus said, "...everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever."
You prefer to read this as "...everyone who commits sin, except of course for the continuing occasional sin that is regretted, is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever."
Jesus said, "Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father."
You prefer to read this as "Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father, except of course for the occasional sin that is regretted."
...etc.
If that was what Jesus meant, He certainly expressed it extremely poorly. Earlier you admonished someone for believing what they "prefer". This is what you're doing here.
"I believe that Jesus understood that people, despite their best efforts, will occasionally sin."
Jesus said, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
You prefer to read this as "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free, except of course of the occasional sin that is regretted. So not really "free" free, just mostly free".
"Who are people of faith? People who follow God's commands."
I know, "People who follow God's commands, except of course the commands that aren't followed, so long as the sin is occasional is regretted".
I don't know if there's any point in addressing the rest of your post. It's evident that your position speaks to the topic of this thread.
Originally posted by Rajk999"First, I did not say it was impossible for anyone to be free from sin. I said or implied that it is difficult for most people to be sinless."
First, I did not say it was impossible for anyone to be free from sin. I said or implied that it is difficult for most people to be sinless.
Second, there is an obvious danger of reading only one portion of the teachings of Christ and making conclusions therefrom. Just look at 'once saved always saved' clan. They zero in on a few verses and ignore all th ...[text shortened]... inuing in His word, one will be made free from committing sin." And that should be our goal.
You said the following:
"All mankind sin. So if your interpretation is correct then there will be nobody in the kingdom."
I didn't know how else to take it other than you saw it as impossible for anyone to do it.
"Finally the same Christ said to ask for forgiveness and your sins will be forgiven. How many times will He forgive our sins? The answer is how many times are we admonished to forgive our brother his sins? Infinitely .. 70x7.
Even after having overcome sin, there is always a number of past sins that need to be forgiven.
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Originally posted by jaywill[/b]I know that Paul often echoed the teachings of Jesus. That doesn't mean that he didn't deviate from them.
[b]========================================
Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' Then I will The scope of the latter is larger than the scope of the former in this case.
Like I said earlier:
Look at what John the Baptist says:
John 3:36
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
One who "believes" but does not "obey", does not have "eternal life".
Jesus echoes the concept here:
Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven"
One doesn't truly "believe" if one doesn't "obey".
From what I can tell, this contradicts what you believe Paul taught.
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Originally posted by ThinkOfOne==================================
I know that Paul often echoed the teachings of Jesus. That doesn't mean that he didn't deviate from them.
Like I said earlier:
Look at what John the Baptist says:
John 3:36
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
One who "believes" but does
From what I can tell, this contradicts what you believe Paul taught.[/b]
I know that Paul often echoed the teachings of Jesus. That doesn't mean that he didn't deviate from them.
=====================================
The more important point which you seem to refuse to concede, is that on precisely the aspect of what Jesus taught, he (Paul) taught the very same thing.
Secondly, I think you should be concerned about your own deviation from Christ's teaching by rejecting words He spoke in resurrection and ascension, from the heavens, like this in His conversation with Ananias in Acts chapter 9:
But Ananias answered Lord, I have heard from many concerning this man, how many evil things he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call upon Your name.
But the Lord said to him, God, for this man [Paul] is a chosen vessel to Me, to bear My name before both the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel. For I will show him how many things he must suffer on behalf of My name." (Acts 9:13-16)
You appear to be on the side of those seeking persecute Paul, Christ's "chosen vessel" rather than on the side of Christ in this commission of Paul.
Aren't you concerned for your own deviation from Christ's teaching then?
=========================================
Like I said earlier:
Look at what John the Baptist says:
John 3:36
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
One who "believes" but does not "obey", does not have "eternal life".
==========================================
Same chapter teaches:
1.) Everyone who believes into Christ has eternal life - " ... that everyone who believes into Him would not perish but would have eternal life. (3:16)
So in context the not obeying the Son that John the Baptist speaks of must be the obediance of believing into Christ. By not believing into Christ you are under the wrath of God because of your refusal to believe.
2.) If wrath is rightly interpretated in chapter 3 as eternal punishment then the one who believes has already passed out of the realm of condemnation unto eternal perdition:
"He who believes into Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed into the name of the only begotten Son of God."
To believe into Christ is to not be condemned, ie. not be under the wrath of God, ie. eternal punishment.
To NOT believe is to be condemned already, ie be under the wrath of God, ie. under the danger of eternal punishment.
Verse 18 proves that the meaning of "disobeys the Son" in verse 36 must mean the disobeying of refusing to believe into the Son of verses 16 and 18.
=================================
Jesus echoes the concept here:
Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven"
=======================================
This teaching is not concerning having or not having eternal life. It is concerning entering into the kingdom of the heavens.
You read "enter into the Kingdom of Heaven" but mentally you substitute your own concept. You insert your understanding which is wrong "have eternal life".
This correction of your misunderstanding is based upon knowing that the scope of having eternal life is larger than the scope of being in the kingdom of the heavens in the book of Matthew. And this takes time to demonstrate. It will not be very clear to the reader who has a short attention spite.
In other words every act of disobedience once a person has believed into Christ, does not cause that person to lose the gift of eternal life.
If that were the case then you would have an absurd "elevator salvation":
ie. Saved at 10:00, unsaved at 10:04 perhaps, saved again five minutes latter, unsaved again in fifteen minutes when you had a failure - on again, off again, on again, off again.
This is the absurd Arminian salvation of hyper Holiness teaching of sinless perfection. It is wrong. It is not helpful to the Christian life. And it does not as some wish, prove that you are more concerned with the true teaching of Jesus and obediance to it.
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One doesn't truly "believe" if one doesn't "obey".
=====================================
The obey, in question in John chapter 3 is the act of believing into Christ.
This agrees with Jesus teaching that the work of God was to believe into Him whom God had sent:
"Then they said to Him, What shall we do that we may work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that you believe into Him whom He has sent." (John 6:28,29)
The gift of eternal life and etenal redemption is obtained by believing into Christ PLUS NOTHING.
It is not eternal life because of believing plus keeping the law.
It is not eternal life because of believing plus doing good works.
It is not eternal life because of believing plus repenting.
It is not eternal life because of believing plus confession.
It is not eternal life because of believing plus obeying.
In the passages in John the you work of God, the obeying IS the believing into Christ.
"Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes has eternal life." (John 6:47)
You are not able to take too much explanation in one post. I think you have a short attention span. Do not therefore think that this is all I have to say on the debate.
But what I emphasize here is that in the New Testament the eternal life is a Person. It is Jesus Himself. And to have the Son, Jesus, is to have eternal life.
"And this is the testimony, that God gave to us [past tense] eternal life and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
I have written these things to you that you may know that you have eternal life, to you who believe into the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:11-13)
In the midst of the verbal diarrhea you issued forth, you wrote the following:
Originally posted by jaywill
The gift of eternal life and etenal redemption is obtained by believing into Christ PLUS NOTHING.
It is not eternal life because of believing plus keeping the law.
It is not eternal life because of believing plus doing good works.
It is not eternal life because of believing plus repenting.
It is not eternal life because of believing plus confession.
It is not eternal life because of believing plus obeying.
In the passages in John the you work of God, the obeying IS the believing into Christ.
Believing is keeping the Law, for how can you 'believe in Christ' without keeping the Law?
Does a chronic adulterer, murderer, or someone who slanders the name of God really believe
in Christ in his heart, or does he just profess it with his mouth?
Believing is doing good works, for how can you be a person of faith and deny food to
your brother?
Believing is repenting, for how can you 'believe in Christ' if you sin against your brother
and be unapologetic for it?
In short, Jesus said, 'If you love me, you will keep my commandments,' and St Paul said
faith without love is worthless and St James said faith without works is dead.
Do you really think that you can 'believe in Christ' and not love Him?
Nemesio