15 Oct 07
1 edit
Originally posted by epiphinehasEP: There is no doubt that all men are equal in the eyes of God, but there is also no doubt that Jesus Christ witnessed to the Jews first:
As usual you pick one portion of scripture and neglect anything else which obviously alludes to the need for a deeper understanding (i.e., anything mysterious). There is no doubt that all men are equal in the eyes of God, but there is also no doubt that Jesus Christ witnessed to the Jews first:
"And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and ...[text shortened]... be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour" (Matthew 15:22-28).
That's what the RCC says but it is incompatible with your claim that Jews are "preeminent".
"preeminent" - having paramount rank, dignity, or importance - From Merriam-Webster's online
15 Oct 07
You all got sucker punched, religion is just a pagan means to control the masses. Religion was created by the Illumunati, and extraterrestrials control the Illumunati. How can you oppose the oppressor if you can't see, or touch them. You're living in a dream world Neo!
15 Oct 07
Is anyone here who'd like to argue that Christians do not see Jewish beliefs as imperfect? Since we're not discussing ethnicity, but religion, what defines these both groups are simply their religious beliefs.
Would then not all Jewish be seen as "imperfect" for Christians? I don't really see any problem with the original statement.
15 Oct 07
1 edit
Originally posted by epiphinehas
The prophesied Messiah King was promised to the Jews since the time of Abraham, so it's no surprise that Christ's ministry began in Israel witnessing to the Jews first. He was sent specifically for them.
Being 'chosen' and 'favored' and receiving Christ first is inconsistent with
the idea that other people are equal with the Jews.
His chosen people reject Him and He turns right around and begins witnessing to the Gentiles.
How do you explain that God -- omnipotent and omniscient -- chose
people whom He knew would reject Him and His Anointed One? Why
not choose the people who wouldn't reject Him? Why make the Jews
'Chosen' if they are also destined to be 'Rejectors?'
Nemesio
15 Oct 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasThe Book of Enoch was trusted by St Jude (author of the letter which is
Are you serious? The book of Enoch? The Book of Adam and Eve? Please tell me you're not serious.
canonized). It is also regarded as Scripture by several ancient Eastern
Orthodox traditions with lines going back to the first century.
Nemesio
15 Oct 07
Originally posted by NemesioSeveral or just the Ethiopian Orthodox? And doesn't the Book of Enoch date from 160 BC or thereabouts?
The Book of Enoch was trusted by St Jude (author of the letter which is
canonized). It is also regarded as Scripture by several ancient Eastern
Orthodox traditions with lines going back to the first century.
Nemesio
15 Oct 07
Originally posted by NemesioBeing 'chosen' and 'favored' and receiving Christ first is inconsistent with
Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]The prophesied Messiah King was promised to the Jews since the time of Abraham, so it's no surprise that Christ's ministry began in Israel witnessing to the Jews first. He was sent specifically for them.
Being 'chosen' and 'favored' and receiving Christ first is inconsistent with
the idea that other people ...[text shortened]... Why make the Jews
'Chosen' if they are also destined to be 'Rejectors?'
Nemesio[/b]
the idea that other people are equal with the Jews.
But not once you understand God's kingdom. Within any given "kingdom" people occupy various positions of delegated authority, e.g., senators, judges, professors, CEO's, police officers, etc., and the same is true of God's kingdom. God entrusts different degrees of responsibility to different people based on their faithfulness, and exalts some over others based on the depth of humility; God rewards people with positions of leadership and power, and delegates His authority to all His children, to rule over creation. Such is the kingdom of heaven.
Now, a police officer has a certain authority given to him by the state, which we as civilians lack. If he asks me to do something, I need to obey, not because of who he is, but of who he represents (in this case, the state). Does his position of authority over me indicate that I and the police officer aren't equal in the eyes of God? Of course not, right? Nevertheless, authority must be delegated and positions of rank held by some rather than others. The same holds true for God's kingdom. God is a God of order.
Another illustration of this is the biblically ordained relationship between a husband and wife. In God's plan, man was created first and woman was created for man as his companion. In a proper relationship, the husband has authority over the wife and the wife is in subjection to her husband. Does the authority which God ordains a husband should have over his wife mean that they aren't equal in the eye's of God? No, they are nevertheless equal. Consider this passage:
"Man is not from woman, but woman from man. Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man... Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God" (1 Cor. 11:8-9, 11-12).
For God's chosen people this same principle reveals itself. In one respect the Jews, being saddled with the responsibility of obeying God's law and being entrusted with the revelations of God, occupy a higher rank (meaning harsher penalties for disobedience) than Gentiles in God's kingdom, but in another respect, they are merely men in that they are just as susceptible to sin as the rest of mankind. Consider this passage:
"What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God... What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin" (Rom. 3:1-2, 9).
Furthermore, because we are all under sin, Jew and Gentile alike, God provides a propitiation for us both, in Christ, through faith:
"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith" (Rom. 3:28-30).
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus" (Gal. 3:28).
Paul says in a few instances, "Jew first, and then Greek." I think it would be safe to say that this order holds true in all of God's relations with mankind, due to God's promise to Abraham, "...in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice" (Gen. 22:18). God's purpose was to make this people His own, to make them peculiar in all the earth, and use them to not only glorify Himself but bless all people.
This same order holds up throughout what is revealed of the day of judgment, when the Jews are resurrected first and meet their judgment first.
How do you explain that God -- omnipotent and omniscient -- chose
people whom He knew would reject Him and His Anointed One? Why
not choose the people who wouldn't reject Him? Why make the Jews
'Chosen' if they are also destined to be 'Rejectors?'
The simple answer is, I think, that whether or not these people were given the oracles of God, they are nevertheless sinners like everybody else on planet earth. Given that they are sinners, and notoriously stubborn sinners to boot, it is no surprise that they rejected the Messiah, considering that the very fact the holy and innocent Son of God hung murdered on a cross is pretty good evidence of the sinfulness of mankind in general. If the Jews hadn't done it, then another family would have.
15 Oct 07
1 edit
Originally posted by kirksey957Jesus said, "I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it" (John 12:49). If everything that Christ says and does is commanded by his Father in heaven, then it could not be true to say of anything He says and does, wherever they occur in scripture, that these are evidences of prejudice, lack of maturity, or that Jesus is simply a product of his culture (though He is a man in this respect). On the contrary, his words and deeds all have significance and purpose.
I experience him as condescending and full of prejudice in this passage. Or at the very least a product of his culture.
15 Oct 07
Originally posted by epiphinehasSo the Son of God had no autonomy?
Jesus said, "I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it" (John 12:49). If everything that Christ says and does is commanded by his Father in heaven, then it could not be true to say of anything He says and does, wherever they occur in scripture, that these are evidences of prejudice, lack of m ...[text shortened]... man in this respect). On the contrary, his words and deeds all have significance and purpose.
15 Oct 07
Originally posted by epiphinehas
The simple answer is, I think, that whether or not these people were given the oracles of God, they are nevertheless sinners like everybody else on planet earth. Given that they are sinners, and notoriously stubborn sinners to boot, it is no surprise that they rejected the Messiah, considering that the very fact the holy and innocent Son of God hung murdered on a cross is pretty good evidence of the sinfulness of mankind in general. If the Jews hadn't done it, then another family would have.
So, you think it's a good idea to choose someone you know is going to
fail?
Nemesio