Originally posted by frogstompSuppose you tell me then. How does one get saved, and where in the bible does it say it?
Paul wasn't the Christ!
The verses Nemesio quoted are Christ words, why dont you believe Him?
I'm not trying to be argumentative here. It's just that I encounter many who profess to be Christians, and I don't second guess them, but they really are clueless when it comes to understanding the doctrine of salvation.
Even Satan can quote scripture. And unless you are a bible believing christian then I neither expect you to believe or understand what I'm talking about.
Originally posted by KellyJayThere is no Heaven, at least not the Heaven you expect. Don't feel bad about that either, It's only works that matter, faith is irrelevant. It's a bit more complicated than I can express with the medium at hand so all I can do is repeat the words " seek and ye shall find".
Context, context, and context it is true that faith without works is
dead, and it is also true that just our works are going to get you into
heaven either.
Kelly
Originally posted by josephwWhy do you say Satan,? It's like you believe God is a maniac.
Suppose you tell me then. How does one get saved, and where in the bible does it say it?
I'm not trying to be argumentative here. It's just that I encounter many who profess to be Christians, and I don't second guess them, but they really are clueless when it comes to understanding the doctrine of salvation.
Even Satan can quote scripture. And unless y ...[text shortened]... lieving christian then I neither expect you to believe or understand what I'm talking about.
Originally posted by frogstompYou can make it hard if you want, the devil will be right there in your
I don't understand people that look for an easy salvation, so maybe I don't understand you guys. However, I do understand the message that Christ delivered, at least part of it and I still seek the rest.
ear to help you come up with ways that make it harder than it really
is. The truth is that it was won for us and it is a gift given to us, the
hard part is not adding to it, but trusting Jesus for it. Our pride makes
us want to work for it, but there isn't enough good works we could do
to make it, the lazy want to avoid obeying God once the relationship
is restored so they do nothing except what they want, that too will get
them where they were going before God entered their life since nothing
about them really changed. The change is the relationship with God
in Christ, all else is just stuff.
Kelly
Originally posted by josephwOne more thing, You don't realize that christianity is only a step along the path, stop there and you will never understand. You might never anyway, but read the message until you understand it and while you are at it , stop trying to pull others back into the darkness.
Suppose you tell me then. How does one get saved, and where in the bible does it say it?
I'm not trying to be argumentative here. It's just that I encounter many who profess to be Christians, and I don't second guess them, but they really are clueless when it comes to understanding the doctrine of salvation.
Even Satan can quote scripture. And unless y ...[text shortened]... lieving christian then I neither expect you to believe or understand what I'm talking about.
Here is the whole Jamesian section—
> James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill," and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe-- and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works. 23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness," and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another road? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead. (My bolds.)
Now, just because Paul wrote a whole lot more than James (or at least we have a whole lot more of what he wrote), I don’t think is any reason to weigh Paul more heavily than James (action, behavior), as Luther did with his sola fide (Luther called James’ letter the “epistle of straw” ).
I haven’t checked the dates on these texts, but its interesting how both Paul and James look to Abraham—one for faith and the other for works!
In answer to the question, “Will your works save you?”, James clearly answers, “Yes—if they are a sign of faith.” But James also seems to up-level the issue by saying that, in fact, that us exactly what good works are. This parallels Jesus’ statement about knowing people “by their fruits.”
Originally posted by KellyJayI didn't say it was hard, its far more of a natural thing than you expect, which you would know if you had understood the message that was the sole reason that Christ said anything at all. Seek and ye shall find , has more meaning than any religion ever realized.
You can make it hard if you want, the devil will be right there in your
ear to help you come up with ways that make it harder than it really
is. The truth is that it was won for us and it is a gift given to us, the
hard part is not adding to it, but trusting Jesus for it. Our pride makes
us want to work for it, but there isn't enough good works we could ...[text shortened]... lly changed. The change is the relationship with God
in Christ, all else is just stuff.
Kelly
Originally posted by vistesdI believe they both are saying the same thing, much like when we
Here is the whole Jamesian section—
> James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but do not have works? [b]Can faith save you? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill," and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is t ...[text shortened]... t good works are. This parallels Jesus’ statement about knowing people “by their fruits.”[/b]
write code and put in both positive and negative logic to cover all
the bases so no matter how someone or something responds we
get what the desire outcome we were looking for.
Kelly
Originally posted by frogstompThe natural thing for a sinner is what, and for a born again person is
I didn't say it was hard, its far more of a natural thing than you expect, which you would know if you had understood the message that was the sole reason that Christ said anything at all. Seek and ye shall find , has more meaning than any religion ever realized.
what?
Kelly
Originally posted by josephwUnfortunately, when you talk about “the doctrine of salvation,” there is more than one—depending on which tradition you’re in. The Greek Orthodox (and other Orthodox churches) treat salvation more as healing—based on the root meaning of the Greek word soterias—whereas in the West, it is treated more as a juridical concept: like pardon. Like any other healing, for the Orthodox salvation is a process, not an event.
Suppose you tell me then. How does one get saved, and where in the bible does it say it?
I'm not trying to be argumentative here. It's just that I encounter many who profess to be Christians, and I don't second guess them, but they really are clueless when it comes to understanding the doctrine of salvation.
Even Satan can quote scripture. And unless y ...[text shortened]... lieving christian then I neither expect you to believe or understand what I'm talking about.
A good, short reference on this is Bishop Kallistos Ware’s How Are We Saved?.
Actually, I think the Orthodox view goes back to the earliest Christian understanding.
Originally posted by frogstompYou sound like one of those self-enlightened elitist types.
One more thing, You don't realize that christianity is only a step along the path, stop there and you will never understand. You might never anyway, but read the message until you understand it and while you are at it , stop trying to pull others back into the darkness.
Originally posted by vistesdSalvation means just one thing, technically speaking, and that is imputed righteousness.
Unfortunately, when you talk about “the doctrine of salvation,” there is more than one—depending on which tradition you’re in. The Greek Orthodox (and other Orthodox churches) treat salvation more as healing—based on the root meaning of the Greek word soterias—whereas in the West, it is treated more as a juridical concept: like pardon. Like any oth ...[text shortened]... ?[/i].
Actually, I think the Orthodox view goes back to the earliest Christian understanding.
And I'm sorry I missed your thread titled Authority when you started it. Maybe I can still get in on it.
