1. PenTesting
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    14 Oct '08 00:09
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    there is absolutely no confusion whatsoever, for example that the parable was clearly allegorical is seen in hyperbole used by Christ, for example, would dipping ones finger and placing it on someones tongue relieve them if they were literally in torment? there is no mention that the richman was wicked, merely that he was rich, there is no mention o ...[text shortened]... s wretched state, its purely allegorical. now the question is, to whom is it addressed and why?
    Backup, not so fast.

    Hyperbole can only be claimed if you are familiar with the circumstances. You know nothing about hellfire on a firsthand basis. You know nothing about the effect of water on the person in torment. So you dont know nomal from exaggerated, do you ?

    According to Christ the richman was wicked in that he refused to follow the second greatest commandment "love thy neighbour".

    According to Christ in Matt 5 :
    3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
    4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
    5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth

    Surely one of those will apply to Lazarus.

    What say you?
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    14 Oct '08 00:142 edits
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Backup, not so fast.

    Hyperbole can only be claimed if you are familiar with the circumstances. You know nothing about hellfire on a firsthand basis. You know nothing about the effect of water on the person in torment. So you dont know nomal from exaggerated, do you ?

    According to Christ the richman was wicked in that he refused to follow the second gre they shall inherit the earth [/i]
    Surely one of those will apply to Lazarus.

    What say you?
    sorry i will not get caught up on an argument about semantics, nor a philosophical debate about whether to know anything we have to experience it. Common sense shall prevail, as to your argument, its garbage and has no basis other than an assumption that the rich man was 'wicked', which is not stated in the parable, nor can you with any certainty say this is the case, its an assumption and has no basis in reality! Until you can answer who Christ was addressing, who the rich man was representative of, who Lazarus was representative of, what was the chasm, and who had Moses and the Psalms then you will never understand the import of what Christ was saying.
  3. PenTesting
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    14 Oct '08 00:23
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    .. Common sense shall prevail, as to your argument, its garbage and has no basis other than an assumption that the rich man was 'wicked', ...
    Assumption?
    Here Christ says it again :
    Matt 25: 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    42 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
    43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.


    Read my lips : RICH PEOPLE WHO DO NOT HELP THE POOR AND NEEDY ARE GOING TO "...everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: "

    You want more verses? Let me know. Christ said it a dozen times.
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    14 Oct '08 00:301 edit
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Assumption?
    Here Christ says it again :
    [i]Matt 25: 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    42 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
    43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed m he devil and his angels: "

    You want more verses? Let me know. Christ said it a dozen times.
    ok, getting back to the actual parable can you name who the rich man was representative of, who Lazarus was representative of, what was the chasm that existed and who had the prophets and Moses, before we tackle this one. and I may warn you, that unless you have a clear understanding of the original Hebrew and Greek words quoted in your rather archaic version of the scriptures you will never get an understanding of what they really were meant to represent. And how can i read your lips your miles away and i don't have a web cam?
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    14 Oct '08 00:36
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Assumption?
    Here Christ says it again :
    [i]Matt 25: 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    42 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
    43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed m ...[text shortened]... he devil and his angels: "

    You want more verses? Let me know. Christ said it a dozen times.
    this was actually addressed to and the application made by Christ himself, about those who refused to show hospitality to Christs brothers, not about the parable of Lazarus, another rather incredible assumption, and just while we are on the subject, can you show me where being rich is in itself a crime, for many of gods ancient servants were quire wealthy.
  6. PenTesting
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    14 Oct '08 00:37
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    ok, getting back to the actual parable can you name who the rich man was representative of, who Lazarus was representative of, what was the chasm that existed and who had the prophets and Moses, before we tackle this one. and I may warn you, that unless you have a clear understanding of the original Hebrew and Greek words quoted in your rather archa ...[text shortened]... re meant to represent. And how can i read your lips your miles away and i don't have a web cam?
    You are trying to go too fast. Forget the interpretation just yet.
    You say it a parable? All parables have a literal meaning.
    You cannot claim to interpret a parable if you cannot say what the literal story represents.
    What is the literal meaning ?

    I dont think its a parable.
    I think it is a story designed to warn people that after death there is no chance to repent and do good works.
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    14 Oct '08 00:37
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Assumption?
    Here Christ says it again :
    [i]Matt 25: 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    42 For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
    43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed m ...[text shortened]... he devil and his angels: "

    You want more verses? Let me know. Christ said it a dozen times.
    i just re read this, what a complete and utter piece of nonsense, give it up!
  8. PenTesting
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    14 Oct '08 00:40
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    this was actually addressed to and the application made by Christ himself, about those who refused to show hospitality to Christs brothers, not about the parable of Lazarus, another rather incredible assumption, and just while we are on the subject, can you show me where being rich is in itself a crime, for many of gods ancient servants were quire wealthy.
    Did I ever say being rich was a crime?
  9. PenTesting
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    14 Oct '08 00:41
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    i just re read this, what a complete and utter piece of nonsense, give it up!
    I quoted the words of Christ.
    Youre a brave soul to call it utter nonsense.
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    14 Oct '08 00:43
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    You are trying to go too fast. Forget the interpretation just yet.
    You say it a parable? All parables have a literal meaning.
    You cannot claim to interpret a parable if you cannot say what the literal story represents.
    What is the literal meaning ?

    I dont think its a parable.
    I think it is a story designed to warn people that after death there is no chance to repent and do good works.
    i am the one trying to get you continually back to the parable, you have not answered one of the questions, not one, in your interpretation all rich people, by the virtue of being rich and miserly are condemned to eternal torment in a fiery hell, its nonsense, absolute and utter nonsense. im sorry but it is, but if you think that its designed to make people do good works can you show me any other instance where Christ tried to put people on a guilt trip in order to motivate them, for i myself have never read anything like that.
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    14 Oct '08 00:432 edits
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    I quoted the words of Christ.
    Youre a brave soul to call it utter nonsense.
    Christs words were fine, its your interpretation that i have trouble with. Can you tell me what the original Hebrew and Greek words, translated in your Bible as 'hell', really were, that's a start, ok. and i will throw this in for later, you claim that once a person has died, they are in need of repentance, while the scriptures clearly show that the wages of sin, is not eternal torment in a fiery hell, but death, the common grave of mankind. Rom 6:23.
  12. PenTesting
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    14 Oct '08 00:52
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    i am the one trying to get you continually back to the parable, you have not answered one of the questions, not one, in your interpretation all rich people, by the virtue of being rich and miserly are condemned to eternal torment in a fiery hell, its nonsense, absolute and utter nonsense. im sorry but it is, but if you think that its designed to mak ...[text shortened]... ople on a guilt trip in order to motivate them, for i myself have never read anything like that.
    According to Christ, and he said it over and over ... All rich people who do not show charity by giving of their wealth to the poor will not get salvation. Yes ... thats what Christ said. Whether you like it or not.

    In addition to what I have already quoted, here are some more :

    Matt 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
    24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.



    Luke 6:24 But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
    25 Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.


    Luke 12:16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
    17 And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?
    18 And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.
    19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
    20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?
    21 So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.
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    14 Oct '08 01:044 edits
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    According to Christ, and he said it over and over ... All rich people who do not show charity by giving of their wealth to the poor will not get salvation. Yes ... thats what Christ said. Whether you like it or not.

    In addition to what I have already quoted, here are some more :

    Matt 19:23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That ...[text shortened]... ou hast provided?
    21 So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.
    yes they are condemned but no where are they condemned to a fiery hell, the first two instances they are excluded from the Kingdom of god, and please don't try to persuade me that this means a fiery torment, its not stated and you cannot infer that it is, the second ones who are having their consolation in full are being tormented, i don't think so! again it is not stated that they are being tormented in a fiery hell and you cannot infer that it is, and the man who stored up treasures for himself, where does it say that he is going to a fiery torment, because i cant quite see it myself. Look the wages of sin is, fiery torment in hell, no, the wages of sin is death, Rom 6:23 that's it, death, nothing more, How can i make it more plain, I know, have a read of Ecclesiastes 9:5 and get back to me, its 2.20 am in Glasgow, i have work tomorrow , not for riches, just to feed my family, heaven forbid i should get rich, we can talk tomorrow - regards Robert.
  14. PenTesting
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    14 Oct '08 16:31
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    yes they are condemned but no where are they condemned to a fiery hell, the first two instances they are excluded from the Kingdom of god, and please don't try to persuade me that this means a fiery torment, its not stated and you cannot infer that it is, the second ones who are having their consolation in full are being tormented, i don't think so! ...[text shortened]... st to feed my family, heaven forbid i should get rich, we can talk tomorrow - regards Robert.
    I now understand .. your beef is with whether its fiery hell or simply dead and in the grave. Well thats a difficult one and probably there is no conclusive answer. As I said earlier (and you seem to be having a similar disucssion with Jaywill), hell was a nice simply concept in the OT and if you understood the translation it was the grave or a place where the Jews burned their trash (Gehenna i think). Then Jesus came along and started talking about eternal fire and gave the story of the Rich man and Lazarus. Now you may give a totally acceptable spiritual interpretation to that parable but can you explain why Christ would use what you seem to be calling 'false doctrines' to make a relatively simple point. Does not sound like something He would do.

    You admitedly are answering questions in several threads so lets give the parable a rest for the time being and I will follow the discussion you are having with Jaywill in the Hell thread.
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    14 Oct '08 16:56
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    I now understand .. your beef is with whether its fiery hell or simply dead and in the grave. Well thats a difficult one and probably there is no conclusive answer. As I said earlier (and you seem to be having a similar disucssion with Jaywill), hell was a nice simply concept in the OT and if you understood the translation it was the grave or a place where ...[text shortened]... he time being and I will follow the discussion you are having with Jaywill in the Hell thread.
    thanks, we need to return to the parable at some point however. i really welcome your comments and apologize for the rather flowery language in some instances, but you are correct, i do not, cannot accept that eternal torment is a biblical teaching and will ardently refute any attempts to prove otherwise, including those sited by Jaywill or anyone else, Christ himself did not teach it, the Hebrew scriptures did not teach it, neither do the christian scriptures, to me personally its Satanic not biblical, as i stated to Jaywill, this idea that somehow something in us transcends death is Pagan, Greek to be honest with you, Plato i think taught it, which was adopted into Christianity after the apostasy which Christ prophesied about, probably about third of forth century although i would need to do some research to be truly accurate - kind regards Robert.
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