1. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    05 Oct '08 14:271 edit
    They invoke Hell to bring about submission and obedience to their God through terror.

    Discuss.
  2. Standard memberRajk999
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    05 Oct '08 14:43
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    They invoke Hell to bring about submission and obedience to their God through terror.

    Discuss.
    At the other extreme they promise eternal life and paradise if you simply say you accept Christ with your mouth.

    Both are wrong and both are designed to draw masses of gullible weak-minded people into church so that pastors can get fat and rich. Because once they have you in church either through fear or empty promises of easy salvation, there is the constant exhortation to give and donate, not to the poor and needy but to the already rich church.
  3. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    05 Oct '08 15:12
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    At the other extreme they promise eternal life and paradise if you simply say you accept Christ with your mouth.

    Both are wrong and both are designed to draw masses of gullible weak-minded people into church so that pastors can get fat and rich. Because once they have you in church either through fear or empty promises of easy salvation, there is the constant exhortation to give and donate, not to the poor and needy but to the already rich church.
    That's not true. They don't say you only have to accept Christ "with your mouth". They demand deep down devotion from the depths of your soul.
  4. Standard memberRajk999
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    05 Oct '08 16:52
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    That's not true. They don't say you only have to accept Christ "with your mouth". They demand deep down devotion from the depths of your soul.
    What exactly is deep down devotion from the depths of your soul?
    Do you even understand what that means?
  5. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    05 Oct '08 17:053 edits
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    What exactly is deep down devotion from the depths of your soul?
    Do you even understand what that means?
    Yes. It means God can read your mind and knows everything and if you don't really, really mean it, he'll know.

    That's what Christians tell people when it comes to how they must accept Christ, not that they just have to say it.

    It means you cannot lie when you say it, if you like that better.
  6. Standard memberRajk999
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    05 Oct '08 17:12
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    Yes. It means God can read your mind and knows everything and if you don't really, really mean it, he'll know.

    That's what Christians tell people when it comes to how they must accept Christ, not that they just have to say it.

    It means you cannot lie when you say it, if you like that better.
    I dont think you really know.
    To truly accept Christ means you are willing to follow his commandments the chief of which is to love God and love your neighbour as yourself. And these are not just words, this is an instruction to do good works.
  7. SubscriberAThousandYoung
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    05 Oct '08 17:321 edit
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    I dont think you really know.
    To truly accept Christ means you are willing to follow his commandments the chief of which is to love God and love your neighbour as yourself. And these are not just words, this is an instruction to do good works.
    That is your opinion as a Christian, and if Christianity is correct, you might be too. That is not what many evangelicals have told me. They certainly haven't promised anything for accepting Christ "just with my mouth". Maybe they've said that to you.
  8. Standard memberRajk999
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    05 Oct '08 18:58
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    That is your opinion as a Christian, and if Christianity is correct, you might be too. That is not what many evangelicals have told me. They certainly haven't promised anything for accepting Christ "just with my mouth". Maybe they've said that to you.
    The expression 'just with your mouth' is my own.
    It means to proclaim your faith in Christ, and you will be saved.
    This is what is taught in churches.

    Christians dont use that expression
    But if you dont follow the commandments of Christ it is 'just with their mouth' that you believe in Christ.
  9. Cape Town
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    05 Oct '08 19:25
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    They invoke Hell to bring about submission and obedience to their God through terror.

    Discuss.
    The threat of terror does not cover the usual definition of a terrorist. Although the Bush administration has distorted the definition into rather new meanings.
    I would normally understand by the word 'terrorist' someone who commits acts of violence in order to 'terrorize' or incite terror in their opponents, specifically - fear of the aggressor.
    If you call anyone who uses fear as an argument to get you to go along with them a terrorist, then you would have to include the Bush administration as they have successfully used the the fear of the American peoples fear of 'terrorists' to pursade them to follow thier lead. You would also have to include previous administrations that did the same thing with communism.

    If on the other hand it is God that sends people to hell, and if he does it primarily for the purpose of scaring believers into heaven, then he is a terrorist.

    One could argue that if you are correct, and Christians are terrorists, then your attempt to portray Christians as terrorist in an attempt to scare people away from Christians, makes you a terrorist too.
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    06 Oct '08 02:20
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    One could argue that if you are correct, and Christians are terrorists, then your attempt to portray Christians as terrorist in an attempt to scare people away from Christians, makes you a terrorist too.
    No, that would make him a freedom fighter.
  11. Illinois
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    06 Oct '08 05:18
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    The expression 'just with your mouth' is my own.
    It means to proclaim your faith in Christ, and you will be saved.
    This is what is taught in churches.

    Christians dont use that expression
    But if you dont follow the commandments of Christ it is 'just with their mouth' that you believe in Christ.
    I'm curious, Raj, what in particular about your Christian faith makes you rejoice? Is there anything about your relationship with God that spontaneously brings you tears of gratitude? Is there anything that God has given you that you could not provide for yourself, for which you perpetually thank Him and bless His name?
  12. Cape Town
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    06 Oct '08 09:032 edits
    Originally posted by Ullr
    No, that would make him a freedom fighter.
    Terrorists usually are freedom fighters. They resort to acts of terror because they lack the political power or military strength to achieve their aims by other means. Some brutal dictators rule by terror, but that is not usually called terrorism. The stock pile of nukes held by the US is essentially a threat of terror. But hopefully it is used as a defensive threat not an aggressive one.
  13. Standard memberRajk999
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    06 Oct '08 19:16
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    I'm curious, Raj, what in particular about your Christian faith makes you rejoice? Is there anything about your relationship with God that spontaneously brings you tears of gratitude? Is there anything that God has given you that you could not provide for yourself, for which you perpetually thank Him and bless His name?
    Actually, I rejoice and thank God every day that I was able to break free of the doctrine on which I was brought up, which was very similar to yours. I grew up in a family in which we read/studied the Bible every night without fail. It was only when I left home at 22 that I was able to study the Bible for myself and it took me almost 20 years to undo the years of brainwashing. I thank God that I am now able to truly see clearly what is Christ expects of us in this life.


    As for your other questions the answers are Yes. I thank God for sparing me (so far) from the typical problems that affect many people - health, financial, social, relationship, family etc ... I have none.

    And what about you ?
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    06 Oct '08 20:232 edits
    There is the need to understand the scope of words.

    Everyone who lives in California lives in the United States. But not everyone who lives in the United States lives in California.

    Is everyone who is "saved" to "enter into the kingdom of God of the heavens" ?

    Eventually I say Yes.

    But are the "saved" to "enter into the kingdom of the heavens " at the same time ?

    No, they may not all enter into that kingdom at the same time.

    If they do not then it is logical that some "saved" will enter before other "saved" will enter. Am I correct ?

    So if some "saved" enter first and some "saved" enter latter than for those who enter latter it could be said that:

    They will not "enter into the kingdom of the heavens" at least temporariy. Is that not logical ?


    If you agree with me up until now, then it is logical that some could call "Lord, Lord" and be eternally saved yet for a time it could be said of them that though they said "Lord, Lord" they were not allowed (at least temporarily) to enter into the kingdom of the heavens. Am I right?

    Now here are two passages from the Bible. I trust that some will see how they are not necessarily contradictory. They BOTH can be TRUE:

    Are you ready? Okay, here we go:


    Verse 1 - "That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead you will be saved." (Romans 10:9)


    Verse 2 - "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who does the will of My Father who is in the heavens." (Matthew 7:21)


    Can anyone see that Romans 10:9 and Matthew 7:21 are not necessarily contradictory to one another ?
  15. Standard memberKellyJay
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    08 Oct '08 17:03
    Originally posted by AThousandYoung
    They invoke Hell to bring about submission and obedience to their God through terror.

    Discuss.
    That is like saying if you are warned about a danger you are heading
    to, being warned about it is a terrorist act. I fail to see your argument
    here, if hell is a dangerous place you should be warned to avoid you
    think it is better to not be told and end up there, because at least
    that way you get a warm and fuzzy all the way to hell?
    Kelly
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