Christs parables

So you have replied. Will I find a specific answer to my question on Luke 12:5? Let's see.

Hell is not mentioned in the passage, it is not even intimated in the passage, it is not a Biblical word, it is an extra Biblical word, imposed on scripture by unscrupulous translators attempting to impose a pagan doctrine and to make a monster of God.

Hell = Hades. Hades = Hell. It is a biblical word.

This is not the real issue as the translations I gave you all used either Gehenna OR contained a footnote of some indicator that GEHENNA or an equivalent was the literal.

You seem to have this unbelievable arrogance that you ALONE care about accuracy of Greek to English translation. Obviously other people are concerned that the reader be given heads up that "hell" there is not the literal Greek. Why we cannot move beyond this is a puzzle to me.

Going on to see if you reply to my question -

The issue has nothing to do with fearing God more than man,

Yes it does. Are you so stubborn that you cannot discern that ? You have to be kidding me.


A. Do not fear man.

B. Instead fear God

Robbie there comes a time when an honest man has to give in to the truth or he will be self deceived.

"And I say to you My friends, DO NOT FEAR those who kill the body and afterwards have nothing more that they can do.

But I will show you WHOM YOU SHOULD FEAR: FEAR HIM [God] who, after killing, has authority to cast into Gehenna; YES, I tell you FEAR this One." [my emphasis]

The whole structure of verses 4 and 5 are:


A. Do not fear man.

B. Instead fear God

it has nothing to do with rhetoric, it has everything to do with imposing an exegesis on scripture where none exists in the passage and will not be sidetracked until you admit the FACT.

We have gone from loose paraphrase to better translation many posts ago Robbie. We have settled the "HELL" English supplied word in a number of English versions.

We have provided English versions with both Gehenna or an equivalent or FOOTNOTES informing the reader that the literal Greek in that passage IS Gehenna.

There was no commentary on the majority of samples I used. One version did have some intervening commentary talking about the city dump.

Okay, exclude that one if you wish, although I think there was nothing wrong with the comment.

Here is the structure of the two verses again:


A. Do not fear man.

B. Instead fear God

Here is the reason for the structure.


A. Do not fear man. This is because after killing the body there is no more that man can do to harm you. His authority and power do not go further than death to the body.

B. Instead fear God This is because AFTER he body is killed God has additional ability to throw you into Gehenna.

Are you saying that man cannot throw things including people into the litural Gehenna ? This is not logical. They threw things into the litural city dump all the time. That is how it got there in the first place. Diseased corpses were also burned there.

If they wanted to they could throw someone into the city dump alive. So Jesus cannot be saying that only God has the power to do that.

"AFTER KILLING" has to mean once you are dead. History knows that the inhabitants of Jerusalem tossed corpses that may have had disease into the city dump to be burned. That was AFTER they were killed by some plague. Jesus cannot be referring to an action that humans can do.

Jesus has to be referring to an action that only God with His divine power and authority can do. And it is for that reason Robbie (right or wrong) that some translators provided the word hell (hades) the realm of the dead.

Go ahead and read "Gehenna". I certainly do. But I already showed you that the Jewish historian Josephus indicated that the Pharisees themselves had a concept of Gehenna being a symbol of God's place of judgment of souls after death.

This does not mean there was no city dump. It means that some first century Old Testament scholars already had a concept of God rewarding or punishing a man after he has died. Jesus indicated that to some extent at least, they were right.

Robert Govett writes:

In the New Testament Jesus teaches, that even after a death by human violence, the soul survives the lifeless body. "Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [lit. Gehenna my note] :Matthew 10:28.

Here it is taught, that the soul survives death. Afer death, God will raise men, and cast some, body and soul re-united, into the eternal place of the lost, there to suffer the eternal process of destruction, or endless misery. This, then, takes in, not the intermediate state alone, proving the soul's existence there; but also the man's existence, after resurrection. ...

Our Lord, in His narrative of the Rich Man and Lazzarus, gives us two examples of the soul's existence after death, either in happiness or misery, before the day of judgment: Luke 16.

The above explanation draws on sister passage Matthew 10:28 to indicate soul and body re-united can be cast into eternal punishment in accord with Revelation 20. And it shows Luke 16 reveals two fates awaiting those who have died.

In addition the Apostle Peter said God knew how to preserve the dead in punishment until the last judgment. Speaking of Sodom and Gomorrah Peter says:

"The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of trial and how to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment." ( 2 Peter 2:9)

Who is Peter talking about in keeping the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment ? He is speaking about Sodom and Gomorrah in the previous verse 6 - "And having reduced to ashes the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, condemned them to ruin, having set them as an example to those who intend to live an ungodly life ..." (v.6)

Jude discovers to us the inhabitants of Sodom as now suffering the wrath of God in fire never to end:

Jude 7 - How Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, who in like manner with these gave themselves over to fornication and went after different flesh, are set forth as an example, undergoing the penalty of eternal fire."

And Peter adds his attestation: 2 Pet.2:9. They are preserved under punishment up to the day of judgment. Though at death the wicked may seem to escape woe, it is a mistake. They are caught, and detained in a place unseen by us, with a suffering less indeed than that which is to be awarded them after judgment, but preparatory to it. This is said, too, of persons guilty before the Law of Moses was given.

You have pandered to your dogma, its a paraphrase (no its not a paraphrase) its a blatant attempt to introduce extra Biblical doctrine!

Quite accurate exegesis I provided. You are the one twisting the words of Jesus that somehow both man and God can throw you into the city dump but somehow, which you have not explained, God should be more feared.

This is a Jehovah Witness false and unreliable New Testament explanation of Luke 12:4,5 and Matthew 10:28.

I resent you intimations and personal attacks as to my ability or otherwise, alleged cowardice, such stupid irrelevancies reflect not on me, but on you.

Okay. The "cowardice" reference may have been too much. Your continued avoidance of the real issue while attacking my reasonable analysis was also troubling to me.

When you admit that your translators have blatantly introduced extra Biblical doctrine, then we can talk about the actual meaning of the passage, until then, you remain branded in your conscience, with a pagan dogma insidiously inserted into scared text where none exists in the passage.

We have just talked about the meaning of the passage. And I think you get an F. That is if you teach that:

1.) man can toss you into the city dump.
2.) or God can toss you into the city dump.
3.) but somehow the disciples should fear God more.

WHY then? What can God do that MAN cannot do if that is the case ?
So Gehenna must be, and is, a symbol used by Jesus there and understood by His audience to mean a trash can of cosmic significance - a divine punishment rather than a societal discarding of city refuse.

Now why did Jesus warn people that their worm would not die or the fire would not be quenched in Gehenna ?

"And if your eye stumbles you, cast it out; it is better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and to be thrown into Gehenna, Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched." (Mark 9:47,48)

Remember now - in Luke 12 Gehenna is used for the punishment of the soul after death. And in Matthew 10 it is Gehenna used for punishment for both soul and body as in the last resurrection when the dead are judged (soul and body re-united) in Revelation 20.

When you admit that your translators have blatantly introduced extra Biblical doctrine, then we can talk about the actual meaning of the passage, until then, you remain branded in your conscience, with a pagan dogma insidiously inserted into scared text where none exists in the passage.

How come your great teacher Charles Russell was so obsessed with pyramids of the ancient Egyptians ? How come on his monument is in the shape of an Egyptian pyramid?

You want to condemn paganism mixed with Christianity ? Why don't you start with your own founder Charles Russell ?

YouTube

Originally posted by sonship

When you admit that your translators have blatantly introduced extra Biblical doctrine, then we can talk about the actual meaning of the passage, until then, you remain branded in your conscience, with a pagan dogma insidiously inserted into scared text where none exists in the passage.

How come your great teacher Charles Russell was so u start with your own founder Charles Russell ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlVs2DqPFXA

because he was trying to understand scripture, not have some extra biblical pagan doctrines imposed upon him from the middle ages, did he abandon the teaching once he found out that it was unsound, you bet, for we are constantly revising our teaching as soon as our understanding becomes more in harmony with divine wisdom, can the same be said of the churches of Christendom, hardly, that is why, your waters are drying up, just as the apostle predicted, Babylon has fallen! Babylon has fallen! Look how the merchants will weep for you.

Originally posted by sonship

When you admit that your translators have blatantly introduced extra Biblical doctrine, then we can talk about the actual meaning of the passage, until then, you remain branded in your conscience, with a pagan dogma insidiously inserted into scared text where none exists in the passage.

How come your great teacher Charles Russell was so u start with your own founder Charles Russell ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlVs2DqPFXA

Hell = Hades. Hades = Hell. It is a biblical word.

More subterfuge and downright fabrication,

The Ten Occurrences of Hades

“Hades,” perhaps meaning “the unseen place,” occurs ten times in the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures, namely, in Mt 11:23; 16:18; Lu 10:15; 16:23; Ac 2:27, 31; Re 1:18; 6:8; 20:13, 14.

In Ac 2:27, Peter’s quotation of Ps 16:10 shows Hades is the equivalent of Sheol and is applied to the common grave of mankind (in contrast with the Greek word taphos, an individual grave)

In the inspired Scriptures these words are associated with death and the dead, not with life and the living. (Re 20:13) In themselves the words “Sheol” and “Hades” contain no thought or hint of pleasure or pain.

because he was trying to understand scripture, not have some extra biblical pagan doctrines imposed upon him from the middle ages, did he abandon the teaching once he found out that it was unsound, you bet, fo e are constantly revising our teaching as soon as our understanding becomes more in harmony with divine wisdom,

When your predictions of the second coming didn't materialize, you bet you revised your prophecies. You and Harold Camping and other post Civil War millennialists.

can the same be said of the churches of Christendom, hardly, that is why, your waters are drying up, just as the apostle predicted, Babylon has fallen! Babylon has fallen!

I am no fan of the World Wide Church of God founded by Herbert Armstrong. However, they revised their theology quite a bit when the old man died and his son open mindedly corrected the heretical errors Senior Armstrong taught.

So that denominations do not alter opinions is a false accusation. In saying this I am not defending denominations. I am only pointing out that denominations sometimes do change their doctrinal views. So your "we're the only pebbles on the beach" understanding is wrong.

The waters of life are flowing freely and abundantly.

Now why did Jesus say as some MSS have it in Mark 9:49 - "For everyone shall be salted with FIRE."

This He spoke after His reference to Isaiah's description of the punishment of the rebel everlastingly in Isaiah 66:

Compare:

Isaiah 66:24 - "Then they will go forth and look on the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against Me; For their worm will not die, Nor will their fire be quenched; and they will be an abhorrence to all flesh."

Mark 9:49 - " ... and be thrown into Gehenna, where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. For everyone will be salted with fire."

I know some MSS say every sacrifice will salted with fire.
Yet salt is a preservative. Why would Jesus say, following talking about Gehenna, that there will be a salting with fire? Ie. a preserving of someone with fire.

The Ten Occurrences of Hades

“Hades,” perhaps meaning “the unseen place,” occurs ten times in the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures, namely, in Mt 11:23; 16:18; Lu 10:15; 16:23; Ac 2:27, 31; Re 1:18; 6:8; 20:13, 14.

In Ac 2:27, Peter’s quotation of Ps 16:10 shows Hades is the equivalent of Sheol and is applied to the common grave of mankind (in contrast with the Greek word taphos, an individual grave)

In the inspired Scriptures these words are associated with death and the dead, not with life and the living. (Re 20:13) In themselves the words “Sheol” and “Hades” contain no thought or hint of pleasure or pain.

Hell is just another word for Hades.

Strictly speaking then Christians when they die go to hell. Shocking as this may sound it is the case if EVERYONE who dies goes to Sheol or to Hades.

So I said that if I die before the second coming of Jesus, I too will go to Hell, strictly speaking I would be correct. Hades is Hell.

The gates of Hell or Hades will not prevail against the church that Jesus said He builds

Matthew 16:18:

New International Version (NIV) New International Version (NIV)
18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

American Standard Version (ASV) New International Version (NIV)
18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Common English Bible (CEB) New International Version (NIV)
18 I tell you that you are Peter. And I'll build my church on this rock. The gates of the underworld won't be able to stand against it.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Now I say to you that you are Peter (which means 'rock'😉, and upon this rock I will build my church, and all the powers of hell will not conquer it.

English Standard Version (©2001)
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the forces of Hades will not overpower it.

Your other comments will have to wait until after I enjoy the abundant flowing living waters of the living Spirit of Christ in our meeting this morning.

Originally posted by sonship

because he was trying to understand scripture, not have some extra biblical pagan doctrines imposed upon him from the middle ages, did he abandon the teaching once he found out that it was unsound, you bet, fo e are constantly revising our teaching as soon as our understanding becomes more in harmony with divine wisdom,

When your pre ...[text shortened]... henna, that there will be a salting with fire? Ie. a preserving of someone with fire.

meaningless and irrelevant.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] The Ten Occurrences of Hades

“Hades,” perhaps meaning “the unseen place,” occurs ten times in the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures, namely, in Mt 11:23; 16:18; Lu 10:15; 16:23; Ac 2:27, 31; Re 1:18; 6:8; 20:13, 14.

In Ac 2:27, Peter’s quotation of Ps 16:10 shows Hades is the equivalent of Sheol and is applied to the com abundant flowing living waters of the living Spirit of Christ in our meeting this morning.

no Hell is not just another word for Hades, nor it it a paraphrase, what it is, is a sly and underhanded attempt to impose a pagan and extra biblical doctrine on the pure unadulterated word of God. As I have demonstrated, both Sheol and Hades contain no element that persons are conscious or are suffering, they are the realms of the dead, not the conscious. You are seriously mistaken if you think that they do. When you admit your iniquity then you may have recourse to point out the mistakes of others, until you do, you remain on your sin.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
no Hell is not just another word for Hades, nor it it a paraphrase, what it is, is a sly and underhanded attempt to impose a pagan and extra biblical doctrine on the pure unadulterated word of God. As I have demonstrated, both Sheol and Hades contain no element that persons are conscious or are suffering, they are the realms of the dead, not the con ...[text shortened]... you may have recourse to point out the mistakes of others, until you do, you remain on your sin.

In Koine, Hades is
1. a) the god of the Underworld, b) the residence of the dead according to the pagan beliefs, the Underworld
2. Hell
3. the place from which Jesus emerges during his resurrection destroying its gates, pulling out Adam and Eve.
The rest of your post is accurate.

The etymology of the word is unknown, but there are two interpretations: for one “common place” and “place in which we can see them all together” (check Sanskr. samvida). For two “invisible, inaccessible”, a meaning that is quite close to the primal essence of Hades.

Of course, very early the word was related to the equivalent Hebr. Seol, meaning the grave of the human race
😵

Originally posted by black beetle
In Koine, Hades is
1. a) the god of the Underworld, b) the residence of the dead according to the pagan beliefs, the Underworld
2. Hell
3. the place from which Jesus emerges during his resurrection destroying its gates, pulling out Adam and Eve.
The rest of your post is accurate.

The etymology of the word is unknown, but there are two interpretat ...[text shortened]... early the word was related to the equivalent Hebr. Seol, meaning the grave of the human race
😵

beetle the idea of torment is of purely Greek origin, you know that the ancients envisioned these things, Tantalus tormented by the fruit just out with his grasp, Prometheus and the eagle who ate his liver, only for it to grow back again and begin the torment again and again, Sisyphus, the miscreant King, compelled to roll a boulder up a hill only to see it fall down again and repeat the exercise, eternally, i remember reading of these in classical studies in secondary school.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
beetle the idea of torment is of purely Greek origin, you know that the ancients envisioned these things, Tantalus tormented by the fruit just out with his grasp, Prometheus and the eagle who ate his liver, only for it to grow back again and begin the torment again and again, Sisyphus, the miscreant King, compelled to roll a boulder up a hill only to ...[text shortened]... t the exercise, eternally, i remember reading of these in classical studies in secondary school.

Sure thing😵

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
beetle the idea of torment is of purely Greek origin, you know that the ancients envisioned these things, Tantalus tormented by the fruit just out with his grasp, Prometheus and the eagle who ate his liver, only for it to grow back again and begin the torment again and again, Sisyphus, the miscreant King, compelled to roll a boulder up a hill only to ...[text shortened]... t the exercise, eternally, i remember reading of these in classical studies in secondary school.

Ge·hen·na
n.
1. A place or state of torment or suffering.
2. The abode of condemned souls; hell.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Gehenna

In the Hebrew Bible, the site was initially where apostate Israelites and followers of various Ba'als and Caananite gods, including Moloch, sacrificed their children by fire (2 Chr. 28:3, 33:6). Thereafter it was deemed to be cursed (Jer. 7:31, 19:2-6).

In Jewish, Christian and Islamic scripture, Gehenna is a destination of the wicked. This is different from the more neutral Sheol/Hades, the abode of the dead, though the King James version of the Bible translates both with the Anglo-Saxon word Hell.

In the synoptic gospels Jesus uses the word Gehenna 11 times to describe the opposite to life in the Kingdom (Mark 9:43-48). It is a place where both soul and body could be destroyed (Matthew 10:28) in "unquenchable fire" (Mark 9:43).

Gehenna is also mentioned in the Epistle of James 3:6, where it is said to set the tongue on fire, and the tongue in turn sets on fire the entire "course" or "wheel" of life.

The complete list of references is as follows:
Matthew 5:22: "....whoever shall say, "You fool," shall be guilty enough to go into the, 'Gehenna.'"
Matthew 5:29: "....it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into, 'Gehenna.'"
Matthew 5:30: "....better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into, 'Gehenna.'"
Matthew 10:28: "....rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in, 'Gehenna.'"
Matthew 18:9: "It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than with two eyes to be thrown into the, 'Gehenna.'"
Matthew 23:15: "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you... make one proselyte...twice as much a child of 'Gehenna' as yourselves."
Matthew 23:33, to the Pharisees: "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you to escape the sentence of, 'Gehenna'?"
Mark 9:43: "It is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into, 'Gehenna,' into the unquenchable fire."
Mark 9:45: "It is better for you to enter life lame, than having your two feet, to be cast into, 'Gehenna.'"
Mark 9:47: "It is better for you to enter the Kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into, 'Gehenna.'"
Luke 12:5: "....fear the One who, after He has killed has authority to cast into, 'Gehenna;' yes, I tell you, fear Him."
James 3:6: "And the tongue is a fire,...and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by, 'Gehenna.'"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna

The instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
Ge·hen·na
n.
1. A place or state of torment or suffering.
2. The abode of condemned souls; hell.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Gehenna

In the Hebrew Bible, the site was initially where apostate Israelites and followers of various Ba'als and Caananite gods, including Moloch, sacrificed their children by fire (2 Chr. 28:3, 33:6). Thereafter it was edia.org/wiki/Gehenna

The instructor

your definition is nonsense, dead people are not conscious of anything.

(Ecclesiastes 9:4, 5) For as respects whoever is joined to all the living there exists confidence, because a live dog is better off than a dead lion. For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.

another Biblical truth which exposes your blatant lies.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
your definition is nonsense, dead people are not conscious of anything.

It is not my definition. Didn't you notice the referenced link?

Also your reference to Ecclesiastes is from the point of view of the wisdom of man, not God. Notice how it begins.

The words of the Teacher, son of David, king in Jerusalem:

“Meaningless! Meaningless!”
says the Teacher.
“Utterly meaningless!
Everything is meaningless."

(Ecclesiastes 1:1-2 NIV)

The instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
It is not my definition. Didn't you notice the referenced link?

Also your reference to Ecclesiastes is from the point of view of the wisdom of man, not God. Notice how it begins.

[b]The words of the Teacher, son of David, king in Jerusalem:

“Meaningless! Meaningless!”
says the Teacher.
“Utterly meaningless!
Everything is meaningless."

(Ecclesiastes 1:1-2 NIV)

The instructor[/b]

from the wisdom of man, you dont think Solomon was inspired?

oh dear another blatant lie needs to be exposed to the light of scripture,

(2 Timothy 3:16, 17) All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

Solomon was inspired by God to state that the dead are conscious of
nothing.

(Ecclesiastes 9:4, 5) For as respects whoever is joined to all the living there exists confidence, because a live dog is better off than a dead lion. For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.

that's twice now you have been caught trying to contradict the word of God, care to make it three, so that the full extent of your lies may be made manifest?