08 Jun 13
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipok, that i simply too much, I am done, your translators were caught blatantly misrepresenting the scared text in an attempt to introduce a concept that is simply extra biblical and we are the ones that have distorted the meaning, no way, this proves beyond a shadow of a doubt to me what a useless and complete waste of time it is trying to dicsuss biblical concepts with persons who are so thoroughly indoctrinated that plain and simple truths are obscured in the pretzel factories of their religious bias. All that is of interest is to me is to what extent and why.I have no argument with the Lord Jesus Christ, I have an argument with a teaching that has kept people in abject fear, rather than a healthy respect for spiritual principles.
Then you should be careful, I think, to indicate the difference.
What I saw was you try to change the actual meaning of [b]Luke 12:5.
What you end up do ...[text shortened]... us who we should really fear. And He is right.
That is not the ONLY thing He taught. Agreed.[/b]
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08 Jun 13
2 edits
ok, that i simply too much, I am done, your translators were caught blatantly misrepresenting
The correction was made. I agreed with you about "hell" being a paraphrase. I provided a better translation.
So what is this pretended attitude that that point was not taken?
I expect you to explain. Could you possibly be still insisting that God and man are equal in that both can discard me into the city dump ?
WHY should the disciples render a greater fear towards God than towards man in Luke 12:5, WHY ??.
08 Jun 13
Originally posted by sonshipa paraphrase? its not even close, its an attempt to impose a concept on scripture that is not there, its really that plain and simple, the idea of a literal place of fiery torment is not present in the text. A paraphrase? steps back in amazement.
ok, that i simply too much, I am done, your translators were caught blatantly misrepresenting
The correction was made. I agreed with you about "hell" being a paraphrase. I provided a better translation.
So what is this pretended attitude that that point was not taken?
I expect you to explain. Could you possibly be still insistin ...[text shortened]... the disciples render a greater fear towards God than towards man in Luke 12:5, [b]WHY ??.[/b]
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08 Jun 13
3 edits
a paraphrase? its not even close,
I would not go down that road if I were you. Your New World Translation will not even admit WHO the translators are. I do not own one but I am pretty sure that I could find many poor paraphrased renderings WAY OFF from the original Greek or Hebrew.
You JWs were better off sticking with the 1901 American Standard which Brooklyn use to print and propogate. Probably they discovered that this excellent English translation didn't support some of their major doctrines so they opted for their own "New World Translation".
Ie. Jehovah is both the Mighty God and the Almighty God. They couldn't possibly have that.
Whether paraphrase of really bad translation, I provided a better rendering. Did I not?
its an attempt to impose a concept on scripture that is not there, its really that plain and simple, the idea of a literal place of fiery torment is not present in the text. A paraphrase? steps back in amazement
Did you answer my question ?
WHY in Luke 12:5 does Jesus teach His disciples that greater fear should be rendered to God rather than to man ?
WHY does Jesus say that that is what they should do ?
WHY Robbie ?
08 Jun 13
Originally posted by sonshipI told you jaywill im done, you win, truth has no chance in the face of such religious bias.
Robbie are your hesitating to answer what I think should be a simple question ?
Why in [b]Luke 12:5 does Jesus tell us that God should be feared over and above man ? What reason does Jesus give for that ?[/b]
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08 Jun 13
3 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I told you jaywill im done, you win, truth has no chance in the face of such religious bias.
I told you jaywill im done, you win, truth has no chance in the face of such religious bias.
No, I don't "win" in some personal way. The word of God wins. And if you believe the word of God you win too.
Now I will answer what you are reluctant to answer about Luke 12:5.
In the teaching the KILLING of a human being is NOT the end of the existence of that human being altogether. It is the end of his life but it is not the end of his existence. His soul is not passed out of existence though his life has been ended.
Man has power over other men up to and including KILLING him. Afterwards there is nothing more that man can do to another man.
But greater fear should be rendered to God (not ONLY fear but greater fear). WHY ? Because "AFTER KILLING" He is able to harm further. And the symbol of this further harm is "Gehenna".
"And I say to you My friends, Do not fear those who kill the body and afterward have nothing more that they can do.
But I will show you whom you should fear: fear Him who, after killing, has authority to cast into Gehenna, yes, I tell you, fear this One." (Luke 12:4,5)
Take it. And you're the winner for believing Christ's word.
08 Jun 13
Originally posted by sonshipthe word of God is to be trusted, your translators are not.I told you jaywill im done, you win, truth has no chance in the face of such religious bias.
No, I don't "win" in some personal way. The word of God wins. And if you believe the word of God you win too.
Now I will answer what you are reluctant to answer about Luke 12:5.
In the teaching the KILLING of a human being is NOT the e ...[text shortened]... ." (Luke 12:4,5)
Take it. And you're the winner for believing Christ's word.[/b]
09 Jun 13
3 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYour own New World Translation has Luke 12:4-5 translated like this. So what is the big difference and error in translation that changes the meaning?
the word of God is to be trusted, your translators are not.
Moreover, I say to YOU, my friends, Do not fear those who kill the body and after this are not able to do anything more. But I will indicate to YOU whom to fear: Fear him who after killing has authority to throw into Gehenna. Yes, I tell YOU, fear this One.
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/luke/12/#v-5
Just had to delete the weird fonts not supported by RHP.
The Instructor
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09 Jun 13
5 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobie
the word of God is to be trusted, your translators are not.
the word of God is to be trusted, your translators are not.
You keep coming back to this rhetoric. But you will not answer my question.
WHY, in any reputable translation of Luke 12:4,5 does Jesus teach His disciples that they should fear God more than man ?
If you do not have the ability to answer this question according to any reasonably accurate Greek to English translation then stop drawing back in cowardice to your rhetoric about bad translations.
Take your pick from one of these English versions and answer the question:
You should have no objection to any of these translations. As you can see some have a FOOTNOTE informing the reader that the "hell" is in place of the literal word Gehenna or an equivalent.
Luke 12:5
Amplified Bible (AMP)
5 But I will warn you whom you should fear: fear Him Who, after killing, has power to hurl into hell (Gehenna); yes, I say to you, fear Him!
Luke 12:5
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
5 but I will show to you, whom ye may fear; Fear him who, after the killing, is having authority to cast to the gehenna; yes, I say to you, Fear ye Him.
Luke 12:5
J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)
Man need only fear God
4-9 “I tell you, as friends of mine, that you need not be afraid of those who can kill the body, but afterwards cannot do anything more. I will show you the only one you need to fear—the one who, after he has killed, has the power to throw you into destruction! Yes, I tell you, it is right to stand in awe of him.
Lukas 12:5
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
5 But I will show you someone of whom you should have yirah; fear the One who after killing the basar has the samchut to throw into Gehinnom. Ken, I say to you, have yirah (fear) of this One.
Luke 12:5
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
5 I will show you whom to fear: fear him who after killing you has authority to throw you into Gei-Hinnom! Yes, I tell you, this is the one to fear!
Luke 12:5
Expanded Bible (EXB)
5 I will ·show you [warn you about] the one to fear. Fear the one who has the ·power [authority] ·to kill you and also [L after the killing] to throw you into ·hell [L Gehenna; C a valley outside of Jerusalem where in the OT period children were sacrificed to a pagan god; later used as a burning trash heap; a metaphor for hell]. Yes, this is the one you should fear.
Luke 12:5
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
5 But I will [a]warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into [b]hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
Footnotes:
a.Luke 12:5 Or show
b.Luke 12:5 Gr Gehenna
Luke 12:5
Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)
5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has power to cast into hell;[a] yes, I tell you, fear him!
Footnotes:
a.Luke 12:5 Greek Gehenna
Choose one of these translations which should be acceptable to you and answer my question please.
09 Jun 13
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipPrecisely.
You JWs were better off sticking with the 1901 American Standard which Brooklyn use to print and propogate. Probably they discovered that this excellent English translation didn't support some of their major doctrines so they opted for their own "New World Translation".
In fact, the JW organization used the King James Version for years and years and years until they decided it didn't support their doctrine and so made their own Bible to fit their doctrine. I didn't even know they ever used the ASV.
Edit: Okay, I just looked it up and they used (and printed) the ASV between using the KJV and using the NWT, presumably because they felt the ASV supported their doctrine better than the KJV did. Then yes, they decided to go Full Monty and made their own NWT.
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09 Jun 13
Originally posted by SuzianneThank you. I had two Watchtower 1901 American Standard Bibles which I used frequently without hesitation. Both have been worn down from usage. I didn't care that the inside cover said Watchtower Society because it is a very good English version if you do not mind the old thees and thous like the KJV.
Precisely.
In fact, the JW organization used the King James Version for years and years and years until they decided it didn't support their doctrine and so made their own Bible to fit their doctrine. I didn't even know they ever used the ASV.
Edit: Okay, I just looked it up and they used (and printed) the ASV between using the KJV and using the NWT, ...[text shortened]... rine better than the KJV did. Then yes, they decided to go Full Monty and made their own NWT.
I was told by a Greek professor and translator that the 1901 ASV had a reputation of being a "wooden" translation. This meant it often sacrificed good sounding English in favor of more accurate word for word translation.
Let's see if Robbie will now answer my question though on Luke 12:5.
09 Jun 13
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipHell is not mentioned in the passage, it is not even intimated in the passage, it is not a Biblical word, it is an extra Biblical word, imposed on scripture by unscrupulous translators attempting to impose a pagan doctrine and to make a monster of God. The issue has nothing to do with fearing God more than man, it has nothing to do with rhetoric, it has everything to do with imposing an exegesis on scripture where none exists in the passage and I will not be sidetracked until you admit the FACT.
the word of God is to be trusted, your translators are not.
You keep coming back to this rhetoric. But you will not answer my question.
WHY, in any reputable translation of [b] Luke 12:4,5 does Jesus teach His disciples that they should fear God more than man ?
If you do not have the ability to answer this question accordin se one of these translations which should be acceptable to you and answer my question please.[/b]
You have pandered to your dogma, its a paraphrase (no its not a paraphrase) its a blatant attempt to introduce extra Biblical doctrine!
I resent you intimations and personal attacks as to my ability or otherwise, alleged cowardice, such stupid irrelevancies reflect not on me, but on you.
When you admit that your translators have blatantly introduced extra Biblical doctrine, then we can talk about the actual meaning of the passage, until then, you remain branded in your conscience, with a pagan dogma insidiously inserted into scared text where none exists in the passage.