30 Oct 10
Originally posted by galveston75Do you even know about Westley and Calvin and the reformation? Do you know about Luther? Do you really know anything about the Catholic religion? Do you know the difference between Catholic and Protestant? Do you know about Eastern Orthodox ?
Again Manny..most Witnesses used to belong to other religions. I'm 54 and have know thousands of Witnesses over my life so I do know plus with most people I know that aren't JW's, the conversation of religion usually comes up, and "most" are occansionally church goers at best.
Well, you are both right and wrong in the sence of modern day Christianity ...[text shortened]... eir doctrines.
So it actually did help with the JW's in getting out of false religion.
You don't even know about your own cult/sect/religion that well. Funny thing is history is to be learned and understood. You just regurgitate what you've been told and read out of your watchtower / awake articles. There are truths in the world to be learned. Truth is truth. You shun knowledge to be ignorant. Be a JW for that is what you are but I challenge you to learn and think outside of your box. Not all in the world is evil.
Manny
30 Oct 10
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75“And the other scriptures do apply completely to being part of a flock or group or organized teaching work such as explained in Matt the 24th & 28th chapters. One cannot do this work or know where it's done or even what is being taught at the doors in an organized and competent way unlesss on is involved with an organization and in the "oneness of mind" Jesus said we have to be.”
Well you mention fellowship and agree with it. Where and when do you get it? Just an occasional visit to the local church or maybe some sporting event they put on or a the annual parking lot flea market?
And the other scriptures do apply completely to being part of a flock or group or organized teaching work such as explained in Matt the 24th & 28th ch t to acomplish the ministry work we have to pay attention to it and be as involved as we can.
As I have said, Hebrews 10:24-25 is very clear about our needed fellowship
with one another, it admonishes us to not be hermits, to not stand apart
from the rest of the body of Christ and warns us to even make sure we are in
fellowship as we see the Day approaching. To pull in a little more of that chapter
to glean the fullness of truth that particular chapter has in it I’d like to
highlight it from Hebrews 10: 16-25, but the point I’d stress out of this is our
ability to come to God through Jesus Christ without concern of sin and our
failings, because we are clean through Jesus Christ. There is nothing in this
portion of scripture suggesting we need to be in an organization of any kind, it
says we are not forsake our OWN assembling together, again you are
suggesting something very specific which is not at all even suggested in this
portion of scripture! Neither do you see some “oneness of mind” your adding
words to the text that are not there!
Hebrews 10: 16-25 (American Standard Version)
This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord: I will put my laws on their heart, and upon their mind also will I write
them; then saith he, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by the way which he dedicated for us, a new and living way, through
the veil, that is to say, his flesh; and having a great priest over the house of God; let us draw near with a true heart in fullness of faith, having our hearts
sprinkled from an evil conscience: and having our body washed with pure water, let us hold fast the confession of our hope that it waver not; for he is
faithful that promised: and let us consider one another to provoke unto love and good works; not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom
of some is, but exhorting one another; and so much the more, as ye see the day drawing nigh.
30 Oct 10
Originally posted by galveston75"1 Corinthians 14:33 (New International Reader's Version)
I appreciate your stand and respect it. Many feel like yourself and see no need or proof that an organized way to worship God is necessary.
But in light of these scriptures it would be good to consider if that is a correct way that God is wanting.
Hebrews 10:24-25 (New International Version)
24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on t ...[text shortened]... rsion)
5 Trust in Jehovah with all thy heart, And lean not upon thine own understanding:
33 God is not a God of disorder. He is a God of peace.
As in all the churches of God's people
1 Corinthians 14:40 (New International Reader's Version)
40 But everything should be done in a proper and orderly way.
Do these scriptures not point to some type of meeting places and to be done in an organized way?"
No, not some type of meeting place at all; however, I agree about there being
some type of agreed upon order to a meeting so all that have a gift or
something to help the body of share. That is a organized manner, but that is
not an organization. Lets look at these scripture in context. As you do you will
see why I said you were stringing scriptural text togetyer to support or make
the point you wanted to make, but these scriptures are not about what you
are trying to make them say!
1Corinthian 14:26-40
What is it then, brethren? When ye come together, each one hath a psalm, hath a teaching, hath a revelation, hath a tongue, hath an interpretation. Let
all things be done unto edifying. If any man speaketh in a tongue, let it be by two, or at the most three, and that in turn; and let one interpret: but if there
be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. And let the prophets speak by two or three, and let the
others discern. But if a revelation be made to another sitting by, let the first keep silence. For ye all can prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all
may be exhorted; and the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets; for God is not a God of confusion, but of peace. As in all the
churches of the saints, let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith
the law. And if they would learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home: for it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church. What? was it
from you that the word of God went forth? or came it unto you alone? If any man thinketh himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him take knowledge of
the things which I write unto you, that they are the commandment of the Lord. But if any man is ignorant, let him be ignorant. Wherefore, my brethren,
desire earnestly to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. But let all things be done decently and in order.
30 Oct 10
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75dont worry its the usual ad hominem, it is devoid of reason, the only recourse they then have left is to attack the person, typical and easily thwarted away as if it were a fly near ones Chardonnay (that rhymes, maybe i could be a poet, but don't know it!)
I'm not accusing you of anything as I don't know you or your religious life. I'm just commenting on what I see and hear from others.
30 Oct 10
Originally posted by galveston75"1 Peter 2:17 (Worldwide English (New Testament))
I appreciate your stand and respect it. Many feel like yourself and see no need or proof that an organized way to worship God is necessary.
But in light of these scriptures it would be good to consider if that is a correct way that God is wanting.
Hebrews 10:24-25 (New International Version)
24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on t ...[text shortened]... rsion)
5 Trust in Jehovah with all thy heart, And lean not upon thine own understanding:
17 Respect all men. Love your Christian brothers. Fear God. Respect the king.
Does the not mention "Brothers" as in an organization? "
No, not at all, I see the elect race, the royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's
own people, the beloved, sojournes and piligrims. I don't see anything at
all that suggests an organization, rather a living body of believers. Again, you
are not rightly dividing the Word of God, you are taking things out of context
to string them together to make them sound like they fit so that they back
up the points you are attempting to make, a dangerous thing to do I might
add.
1 Peter 2:9-17 (American Standard Version)
But ye are a elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called
you out of darkness into his marvellous light: who in time past were no people, but now are the people of God: who had not obtained mercy, but now
have obtained mercy. Beloved, I beseech you as sojourners and pilgrims, to abstain from fleshly lust, which war against the soul; having your behavior
seemly among the Gentiles; that, wherein they speak against you as evil-doers, they may by your good works, which they behold, glorify God in the
day of visitation. Be subject to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether to the king, as supreme; or unto governors, as sent by him for
vengeance on evil-doers and for praise to them that do well. For so is the will of God, that by well-doing ye should put to silence the ignorance of foolish
men: as free, and not using your freedom for a cloak of wickedness, but as bondservants of God. Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor
the king.
30 Oct 10
Originally posted by galveston75You get an ear full from others and you project it upon all those that do not
I'm not accusing you of anything as I don't know you or your religious life. I'm just commenting on what I see and hear from others.
belong to your group? So yes, it bothered me that you cast everyone who
did not agree with you into such a shallow life of fellowship.
Kelly
30 Oct 10
Originally posted by KellyJayOk. You have your opinion but the scriptures say differently. After you look up all these scriptures here see if you still deny any organization. The JW's follow this organization established by Jesus to the tee.
"1 Corinthians 14:33 (New International Reader's Version)
33 God is not a God of disorder. He is a God of peace.
As in all the churches of God's people
1 Corinthians 14:40 (New International Reader's Version)
40 But everything should be done in a proper and orderly way.
Do these scriptures not point to some type of meeting places and to be don ...[text shortened]... sy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. But let all things be done decently and in order.
Organization of the Christian Congregation:
While Christian congregations of God were established in various places, they did not function independently of one another. Instead, they all recognized the authority of the Christian governing body at Jerusalem. This governing body was comprised of the apostles and older men of the Jerusalem congregation, there being no rival bodies elsewhere seeking to supervise the congregation. It was to the faithful Christian governing body of the first century C.E. that the issue of circumcision was submitted for consideration. When the governing body made its decision, as directed by the holy spirit, that decision was accepted and became binding upon all Christian congregations, these willingly submitting to it.—Ac 15:22-31.
The Christian body in Jerusalem sent out traveling representatives. Thus, Paul and others delivered the governing body’s decision just mentioned, it being stated: “Now as they traveled on through the cities they would deliver to those there for observance the decrees that had been decided upon by the apostles and older men who were in Jerusalem.” Concerning the effects produced, it is said: “Therefore, indeed, the congregations continued to be made firm in the faith and to increase in number from day to day.” (Ac 16:4, 5) Earlier, when the apostles in Jerusalem “heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they dispatched Peter and John to them; and these went down and prayed for them to get holy spirit.”—Ac 8:14, 15.
The individual congregations adhered closely to the direction of the Christian governing body, which supervised the appointment of older men. (Tit 1:1, 5) So it was that, as directed by the Christian governing body under the influence of the holy spirit, overseers as well as assistants, ministerial servants, were appointed for each congregation. The men placed in these positions of trust and responsibility had to meet specific qualifications. (1Ti 3:1-13; Tit 1:5-9) Traveling representatives of the governing body, such as Paul, followed Christ and set a fine example to be imitated. (1Co 11:1; Php 4:9) In fact, all of those in the position of spiritual shepherds were to become “examples to the flock” (1Pe 5:2, 3), were to show loving concern for individuals within the congregation (1Th 2:5-12), and were to be of real assistance to those spiritually sick.—Ga 6:1; Jas 5:13-16; see OLDER MAN; OVERSEER; MINISTER.
Hence, just as Jehovah organized the congregation of Israel under older men, heads, judges, and officers (Jos 23:2), He saw to the supervision of the Christian congregation by having older men appointed to positions of trust therein. (Ac 14:23) And, as responsible men sometimes acted representatively for the entire congregation of Israel, as in judicial matters (De 16:18), God arranged for each individual Christian congregation to be similarly represented in such matters by responsible men placed in positions of authority by the holy spirit. (Ac 20:28; 1Co 5:1-5) However, should difficulties develop between members of the Christian congregation of God, the words of Jesus Christ recorded at Matthew 18:15-17 (spoken before the Jewish congregation of God had been rejected by Jehovah and thus initially applicable to it) served as a basis for settling or handling such problems.
Jehovah God has set the members in the spiritual “body” of Christ “just as he pleased.” And Paul stated: “God has set the respective ones in the congregation, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then powerful works; then gifts of healings; helpful services, abilities to direct, different tongues.” Not all performed the same functions, but all were needed by the Christian congregation. (1Co 12:12-31) Paul explained that the supplying of apostles, prophets, evangelizers, shepherds, and teachers for the Christian congregation was “with a view to the readjustment of the holy ones, for ministerial work, for the building up of the body of the Christ, until we all attain to the oneness in the faith and in the accurate knowledge of the Son of God, to a full-grown man, to the measure of stature that belongs to the fullness of the Christ.”—Eph 4:11-16.
The congregation of Israel was provided with the laws of God and was made to appreciate that “not by bread alone does man live but by every expression of Jehovah’s mouth does man live.” (De 8:1-3) Jesus Christ also recognized that man could not live on bread alone “but on every utterance coming forth through Jehovah’s mouth.” (Mt 4:1-4) Hence, adequate provision has been made for the Christian congregation to have needed spiritual food, Christ himself mentioning the “slave” through whom such food is dispensed to Christian “domestics.” Jesus, as part of his prophecy concerning his own presence and “the conclusion of the system of things,” showed that, on arriving, the “master” would appoint this “faithful and discreet slave” “over all his belongings.”—Mt 24:3, 45-47.
Gatherings for the worship of Jehovah and a consideration of his law were important in the congregation of Israel. (De 31:12; Ne 8:1-8) Similarly, meetings for the worship of Jehovah and a study of the Scriptures are an essential feature of the Christian congregation of God, the writer to the Hebrews admonishing the recipients of his letter not to be forsaking such gathering of themselves together. (Heb 10:24, 25) Activities in the synagogues of later Jewish history included the reading and teaching of the Scriptures, the offering of prayers, and the giving of praise to God. Such features were carried over into places of Christian assembly, though without the ritualistic accretions that had eventually developed in synagogue services. In the synagogue no sacerdotal class was set apart, sharing in Scripture reading and exposition being open to any devout male Jew. Comparably, no clergy-laity or similar division existed within the early Christian congregation. Of course, neither therein nor in the synagogue did the women teach or exercise authority over the men.—1Ti 2:11, 12.
The maintaining of proper order at meetings of the Christian congregation of God harmonized with the fact that Jehovah, who made provision for the congregational arrangement among Christ’s followers, is a “God, not of disorder, but of peace.” This orderliness also worked to the great spiritual benefit of all in attendance.—1Co 14:26-35, 40
30 Oct 10
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75Did you write all of this, or is it something your quoting and once again not
Ok. You have your opinion but the scriptures say differently. After you look up all these scriptures here see if you still deny any organization. The JW's follow this organization established by Jesus to the tee.
Organization of the Christian Congregation:
While Christian congregations of God were established in various places, they did not functio ...[text shortened]... s orderliness also worked to the great spiritual benefit of all in attendance.—1Co 14:26-35, 40
giving credit to someone else for their work? If it is someone else's work
who, please quote it so I can look it up.
Kelly
30 Oct 10
Originally posted by KellyJayIt's from the Insight Book vol #!.
Did you write all of this, or is it something your quoting and once again not
giving credit to someone else for their work? If it is someone else's work
who, please quote it so I can look it up.
Kelly
So...do you not agree with the scriptures you can look up in your own Bible?l
30 Oct 10
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75I agree with the scripture I can look up in my own Bible, what I have is a very
It's from the Insight Book vol #!.
So...do you not agree with the scriptures you can look up in your own Bible?l
hard time with is what you are suggesting it means! I would really like it if you
would start to give credit to sources you choose to quote. Nothing wrong
with getting quotes for things you agree with, but do not make it appear you
are writting something you did not. I'm also a little concern that you did not
in your own words answer my question, but instead just posted someone
else's work. Do you have in your own mind answers to questions, or do I have
to go to another source for what you are thinking?
Seriously, you already get that many of us think think your group is a cult, so
not being able to answer with your own words, instead having to make an
entire post something someone one else said, that basically gives the
impression that others not ourself are thinking for you. I can get why you and
others do not disagree if you cannot for yourselves give your own answers. I
would really like to know who wrote your sources too, you didn't really give me
even vol number, I'm assuming it was a typo on your part, but who wrote the
text in your Insight Book?
On a side note, I want to thank you for your time. I believe conversations
that for the most part are "name calling or insult free" are some what few and
far between here. I get that you and I both have said things the other could
take badly, but I don't believe anything personal was really said for the sake of
hurting the others feelings.
Thank you for that!
Kelly
30 Oct 10
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75It all stems from the strong doctrination of each of these different based Churches and their miss-following Christ's teachings, their misunderstanding it obviously, or they would be healing as he did and told his followers to do as well.
Again Manny..most Witnesses used to belong to other religions. I'm 54 and have know thousands of Witnesses over my life so I do know plus with most people I know that aren't JW's, the conversation of religion usually comes up, and "most" are occansionally church goers at best.
Well, you are both right and wrong in the sence of modern day Christianity eir doctrines.
So it actually did help with the JW's in getting out of false religion.
There are Churches that do heal in place of relying to medical need. Christian Science, not Scientology, is one of these Churches.
30 Oct 10
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWho could NOT be a poet, but he who knew not he was. =p
dont worry its the usual ad hominem, it is devoid of reason, the only recourse they then have left is to attack the person, typical and easily thwarted away as if it were a fly near ones Chardonnay (that rhymes, maybe i could be a poet, but don't know it!)
31 Oct 10
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayThanks and your welcome to. I appreciate the kindness.
I agree with the scripture I can look up in my own Bible, what I have is a very
hard time with is what you are suggesting it means! I would really like it if you
would start to give credit to sources you choose to quote. Nothing wrong
with getting quotes for things you agree with, but do not make it appear you
are writting something you did not. I'm als s really said for the sake of
hurting the others feelings.
Thank you for that!
Kelly
But as I've explained before to a few here is I do have bad eye sight and it would take me forever to type out basically what I posted here. I do totally agree with this information or I would either not post it or would change what I didn't agree with.
But with all the scriptures that are included in this explination as well as the historical evidence that this was a very well planed and organized way that Jesus directed the congregations and all the supporting Apostles and diciples worked to establish. And the absolute main work of these congregations was to do the teaching work throughout all the lands they could do and to go out by twos.
And that teaching work is exactly what we are doing. It is something that over the centuries other religions with their laity class has stopped seeing the importance of and feel it is no loger neccesary. But we will continue to do it in a very organized way as we want to offer the messages and hope that Jesus said to spread. We wil only stop when Jesus says to stop.