Compelled to change?

Originally posted by knightmeister
I would like you to be more precise actually. How does homosexuality harm anyone or cause individual / social destruction? Afterall , nobody is asking you to watch .

I can offer you precise accounts and clear arguments as to how the church's stance causes hurt , pain and unhappiness. For example , I have spoken to Christians who have felt marginali ...[text shortened]... The anguish , pain, guilt and confusion is obvious. Can you offer a precise counter example?

Again, how does stealing or lying hurt the thief or the liar ? Do you have any idea ? How does this affect society ? Nobody is asking you to watch a liar lying nor a thief stealing ..... correct ?

"I can offer you precise accounts and clear arguments as to how the church's stance causes hurt , pain and unhappiness."

I never claimed living one's life according the Church's teachings is easy ... or do you mean that if the Church stated that performing homosexual acts are not sinful this would make homosexuals happy ?

Stating that theft is morally acceptable makes thieves "happy" as well, but nobody would want to advocate this.

The Church does not have the authority to change morally wrong into morally good. Neither does the Church have magical powers to do this.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Certain statements that very clear backing by Christ. Not just anything that happens to be in the Bible. For example, Moses' Law cannot be part of Christianity, in my opinion.

Also here is something that is worth considering. Moses Law preceeded Christ by 2K to 3K years. Christ came and did away with it. In the time of Christ the Pharisees were busy enfo ...[text shortened]... an very well be new laws and guidelines forming before our eyes and we are too blind to see it.

"There can very well be new laws and guidelines forming before our eyes and we are too blind to see it."


Like ... stealing is morally acceptable .... and killing is morally acceptable ..... insulting people is acceptable .... degrading people is morally acceptable ... ?

Originally posted by ivanhoe
You can't read. The Cathechism does not state the claims you mention.

Can you read, ivanhoe? It states clearly enough that "[homosexual acts] do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity." Now, the "sexual" part is a no duh, since it's tautological that homosexual acts don't proceed from heterosexuality, which descriptively is what sexual complementarity is -- as in the two different sexes complement each other so that the sexes involved exhaust possibilities. Now the rest is not only not obvious but it seems blatantly false. Come on, ivanhoe, on what basis can you say that the affections from which homosexual acts proceed are not "genuine" and/or that these affections the partners bring to each other are not emotionally complementary? I know it's comforting for you to presume that the affections gay partners have for each other are somehow fake and for you to trivialize them, but is there any rational basis for this?

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Again, how does stealing or lying hurt the thief or the liar ? Do you have any idea ? How does this affect society ? Nobody is asking you to watch a liar lying nor a thief stealing ..... correct ?

[b]"I can offer you precise accounts and clear arguments as to how the church's stance causes hurt , pain and unhappiness."

I never claimed living one's ...[text shortened]... morally wrong into morally good. Neither does the Church have magical powers to do this.[/b]

Again, how does stealing or lying hurt the thief or the liar ? Do you have any idea ? How does this affect society ?IVANHOE

I have some very clear and precise ideas actually. Lying is a betrayal of trust and respect towards individuals and society. Political lies are particularly dangerous and hurtful (ask Tony Blair) . Lying leads to a subversion of the truth so that society is kept ignorant of what is going on out there it also erodes personal integrity and breaks up relationships. It is the opposite of transparency and openess which is important for integrity. Jesus said that the enemy was a liar from the beginning , thus lies are directly linked to evil in this way.Lying forms a key part of adultery

...Now Ivan I could go on further and say more or move on to stealing. As you can see I have some clear ideas. My problem as a Christian when it comes to homoseuxality is that I cannot find the same argument within me , therefore I HAVE to question whether we have gone astray on this issue somehow.

I do not have to see a lie or a thief to be hurt by them. I have been a victim of both and saw neither of the perpetrators nor knew who they were.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Again, how does stealing or lying hurt the thief or the liar ? Do you have any idea ? How does this affect society ? Nobody is asking you to watch a liar lying nor a thief stealing ..... correct ?

[b]"I can offer you precise accounts and clear arguments as to how the church's stance causes hurt , pain and unhappiness."

I never claimed living one's ...[text shortened]... morally wrong into morally good. Neither does the Church have magical powers to do this.[/b]

do you mean that if the Church stated that performing homosexual acts are not sinful this would make homosexuals happy ?IVANHOE

It would open the door to christians who currently feel excluded.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
"There can very well be new laws and guidelines forming before our eyes and we are too blind to see it."


Like ... stealing is morally acceptable .... and killing is morally acceptable ..... insulting people is acceptable .... degrading people is morally acceptable ... ?

Like ... stealing is morally acceptable .... and killing is morally acceptable ..... insulting people is acceptable .... degrading people is morally acceptable ... ? IVAN

All of which are accepted by society as a whole as morally wrong for obvious humanistic and spiritual reasons . They can all be reasonably argued as morally wrong. Homosexuality cannot and is thus different . Do you accept this?

Originally posted by LemonJello
Can you read, ivanhoe? It states clearly enough that "[homosexual acts] do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity." Now, the "sexual" part is a no duh, since it's tautological that homosexual acts don't proceed from heterosexuality, which descriptively is what sexual complementarity is -- as in the two different sexes com ...[text shortened]... somehow fake and for you to trivialize them, but is there any rational basis for this?

You have already changed your interpretations of the Cathechism's claims a wee bit. You're improving.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Again, how does stealing or lying hurt the thief or the liar ? Do you have any idea ? How does this affect society ? Nobody is asking you to watch a liar lying nor a thief stealing ..... correct ?

[b]"I can offer you precise accounts and clear arguments as to how the church's stance causes hurt , pain and unhappiness."

I never claimed living one's ...[text shortened]... morally wrong into morally good. Neither does the Church have magical powers to do this.[/b]

The Church does not have the authority to change morally wrong into morally good. Neither does the Church have magical powers to do this.

IVAN


...and yet people who damage the planet by flying a lot and driving 4x4s are not excluded from church leadership are they? And yet a man who in the privacy of his own home has sex with his lover in a respectful dignified way is considered a "problem"? The church does seem to have magical powers to de-emphasis some sins that actually are hurting others and getting all hot and bothered about other "sins" which you yourself can provide no coherent argument to be hurtful. I mean come on , it's the 4x4 brigade that will be the death of us not the gay priests.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
You have already changed your interpretations of the Cathechism's claims a wee bit. You're improving.

I didn't change anything. Do you have support for your views, or not? If not, just say so and quit wasting my time.

Originally posted by knightmeister
do you mean that if the Church stated that performing homosexual acts are not sinful this would make homosexuals happy ?IVANHOE

It would open the door to christians who currently feel excluded.

Every homosexual can join the Roman Catholic Church, no need to feel excluded.

Originally posted by LemonJello
I didn't change anything. Do you have support for your views, or not? If not, just say so and quit wasting my time.

I'll stop wasting your time, since you are not capable of accepting the answers I give.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Every homosexual can join the Roman Catholic Church, no need to feel excluded.

"You are free to join the Roman Catholic Church, however to remain in good standing, you may not participate in the same activities as the heterosexual members who are in committed relationships. No need to feel excluded, though."

Nevertheless the Roman Catholic Church appears to be a half-step ahead of the Church of Whodey on this topic at least 🙂

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Every homosexual can join the Roman Catholic Church, no need to feel excluded.

You may say this but obviously many DO feel excluded. I would feel like a second class citizen if I was told that because of my sexual identity I was not to be given the same involvement and someone of a different sexual orientation. If I was told I could not be a full member because I was black would that not feel excluding?

BTW- There is much evidence that many within the church hide their true sexual identity for fear of exclusion or rejection.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
"Moses Law preceeded Christ by 2K to 3K years. Christ came and did away with it."

He did ? How ?

This is also a wee bit off topic ......

Moses Law was for the Jews. The commandments of CHrist are for Christians.

Originally posted by knightmeister
Like ... stealing is morally acceptable .... and killing is morally acceptable ..... insulting people is acceptable .... degrading people is morally acceptable ... ? IVAN

All of which are accepted by society as a whole as morally wrong for obvious humanistic and spiritual reasons . They can all be reasonably argued as morally wrong. Homosexuality cannot and is thus different . Do you accept this?

Insulting people IS acceptable. Free speech, baby!