1. Standard memberRajk999
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    21 Jul '18 10:031 edit
    Originally posted by @kellyjay
    Torture is not in the scripture why would I address it?
    I will get back to you on the other point shortly, a little later today.
    You are nitpicking.
    Torment appears in the bible.
    You want to address that word?
  2. Standard memberRajk999
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    21 Jul '18 10:31
    Originally posted by @kellyjay
    Matthew 3:2
    And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

    Never really gave that much thought, but I'd say this could be what some us use for that.
    It is God's Kingdom, where God is, that would be the heaven I seek.
    That does not address the doctrine of going to heaven.
    You also ignored the point of the eternal soul.. where is that in the bible?

    So just in this post alone, you have two doctrines in your head which are not biblical.
  3. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
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    21 Jul '18 10:41
    Originally posted by @rajk999
    That does not address the doctrine of going to heaven.
    You also ignored the point of the eternal soul.. where is that in the bible?

    So just in this post alone, you have two doctrines in your head which are not biblical.
    "...eternal soul.. where is that in the bible?"


    In 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 Paul uses the Greek word “paradeisos” to describe heaven. This same word is used by Jesus when speaking to the thief on the cross, “Today you will be with me in paradise.”

    Doesn't this imply an eternal soul, that after physical death the saved are immediately in heaven? (The same day).
  4. Standard memberRajk999
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    21 Jul '18 10:51
    Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
    "...eternal soul.. where is that in the bible?"


    In 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 Paul uses the Greek word “paradeisos” to describe heaven. This same word is used by Jesus when speaking to the thief on the cross, “Today you will be with me in paradise.”

    Doesn't this imply an eternal soul, that after physical death the saved are immediately in heaven? (The same day).
    No. Jesus saved the man and carried him to paradise.
    Souls can be destroyed as Jesus said in Matt 10:28.
    Souls are therefore not eternal.
  5. Standard memberKellyJay
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    21 Jul '18 12:23
    Originally posted by @rajk999
    You are nitpicking.
    Torment appears in the bible.
    You want to address that word?
    LOL, you are saying this of all people!
  6. Standard memberKellyJay
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    21 Jul '18 12:26
    Originally posted by @tom-wolsey
    Ok KJ. I'll skip the formalities and dive right in. Annihilationism, a.k.a. "Conditional Immortality" vs. Eternal Torment, a.k.a. "ECT" or Eternal Conscious Torment.

    Point by point. I'll start with a verse that some allege supports Conditional Immortality. Then you can refute it and give me a verse that others say supports eternal torment. This ...[text shortened]... h.

    Obviously a translation of "torture" or "endless pain without dying" is out of place here.
    Perishing to certain death is not total destruction, even dying here isn't the death that all
    should be concerned about. Because there is a 2nd death.
  7. Standard memberKellyJay
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    21 Jul '18 12:281 edit
    Originally posted by @tom-wolsey
    I was planning on doing this verse by verse with discussion on each. You skipped my verse and went straight into all the verses you have. That's fine, but...

    Anyway.

    The verse above only says the fire is eternal. So I have no reason to even address it.

    [b]Matthew 25:46
    And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into e ...[text shortened]... opposed to an eternal life. This, again, does not depict existence as eternal, for the wicked.
    Yes, and end to life, equaling death.
  8. Standard memberKellyJay
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    21 Jul '18 12:29
    Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
    'These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.'

    2 Thessalonians 1:9
    This is a good one Duke have to ponder this one.
  9. Standard memberKellyJay
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    21 Jul '18 12:32
    Originally posted by @tom-wolsey
    Destruction that last eternally. Permanent destruction.

    Destruction brings an end to something. Something that is destroyed ceases to exist. Eternally.
    I believe we have established that destruction is the end of life that lasts eternally, a very
    real eternal death? If we can agree to that, but now destroyed, that ceases to exist is not
    where nothing of them remains any more is not quite the same thing. Can we agree on
    that?
  10. Standard memberRajk999
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    21 Jul '18 12:34
    Originally posted by @kellyjay
    I believe we have established that destruction is the end of life that lasts eternally, a very
    real eternal death? If we can agree to that, but now destroyed, that ceases to exist is not
    where nothing of them remains any more is not quite the same thing. Can we agree on
    that?
    Do you understand what you write?
    It appears to be jumbled up nonsense.
  11. Standard memberKellyJay
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    21 Jul '18 12:37
    Originally posted by @rajk999
    LOL .. good luck to you. Most people on this side of the issue have discussed this with KJ and he cannot see the flaw in his reasoning.


    Two points that he cannot grasp-
    Eternal punishment does not mean eternal torment
    The Lake of Fire does not mean eternal torment.
    Torture is not there, torment is. If you are going to complain at least do it following the
    discussion and complain about things actually said. Stop making them up!
  12. Standard memberRajk999
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    21 Jul '18 12:40
    Originally posted by @kellyjay
    Torture is not there, torment is. If you are going to complain at least do it following the
    discussion and complain about things actually said. Stop making them up!
    You lack clarity of expression. Your writing is vague and confused.
    That happens when a persons thoughts are unclear in his head.
  13. Standard memberKellyJay
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    21 Jul '18 13:08
    Originally posted by @rajk999
    You lack clarity of expression. Your writing is vague and confused.
    That happens when a persons thoughts are unclear in his head.
    Nothing to add to the discussion, but insults. You are not vague or confused just not part
    of the discussion, you are only here to insult people.
  14. Standard memberKellyJay
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    21 Jul '18 13:211 edit
    Originally posted by @tom-wolsey
    Destruction that last eternally. Permanent destruction.

    Destruction brings an end to something. Something that is destroyed ceases to exist. Eternally.
    Genesis 6:17
    For behold, I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life under heaven. Everything that is on the earth shall die.

    Genesis 18:31
    He said, “Behold, I have undertaken to speak to the Lord. Suppose twenty are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of twenty I will not destroy it.”

    Mark 1:24
    “What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God.”

    1 Corinthians 5:5
    you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

    1 Thessalonians 5:3
    While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

    I would say that if that were true, if something is destroyed it ceases to exist eternally
    than every time that would is used that would be the result. The destruction for life I do
    believe ends in death; however, the ceases to exist part, I don't think you have shown
    that to be true, but we do agree I believe that this punishment is eternal. Right now we
    are going over if that means because they stay in this state or it only lasts a few
    whatever, seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, years, decades, centuries, or eternally.
  15. Standard memberKellyJay
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    21 Jul '18 15:03
    Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
    'These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.'

    2 Thessalonians 1:9
    2 Thessalonians 1:
    5 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— 6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. 11 To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    A few things after reading this in the context it was written in.
    1. There are those that know the God, and those that do not.
    2. There are those that are going to suffer punishment of eternal destruction away from
    the presence of the Lord, this was said in context of those that do know the presence of
    the Lord. With them when He comes He will be glorified in His saints.
    3. The text shares with us that Jesus should be glorified in us now in this life, and we in
    Him. This isn't something that just occurs in the next life, it starts in this one!
    4. The prayer is that God may make us worthy of His calling, that we may fulfill every
    good work in the faith by His power. (note: God in us is required for that now)
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