Originally posted by @kellyjayThat does not address the doctrine of going to heaven.
Matthew 3:2
And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Never really gave that much thought, but I'd say this could be what some us use for that.
It is God's Kingdom, where God is, that would be the heaven I seek.
You also ignored the point of the eternal soul.. where is that in the bible?
So just in this post alone, you have two doctrines in your head which are not biblical.
Originally posted by @rajk999"...eternal soul.. where is that in the bible?"
That does not address the doctrine of going to heaven.
You also ignored the point of the eternal soul.. where is that in the bible?
So just in this post alone, you have two doctrines in your head which are not biblical.
In 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 Paul uses the Greek word “paradeisos” to describe heaven. This same word is used by Jesus when speaking to the thief on the cross, “Today you will be with me in paradise.”
Doesn't this imply an eternal soul, that after physical death the saved are immediately in heaven? (The same day).
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeNo. Jesus saved the man and carried him to paradise.
"...eternal soul.. where is that in the bible?"
In 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 Paul uses the Greek word “paradeisos” to describe heaven. This same word is used by Jesus when speaking to the thief on the cross, “Today you will be with me in paradise.”
Doesn't this imply an eternal soul, that after physical death the saved are immediately in heaven? (The same day).
Souls can be destroyed as Jesus said in Matt 10:28.
Souls are therefore not eternal.
Originally posted by @tom-wolseyPerishing to certain death is not total destruction, even dying here isn't the death that all
Ok KJ. I'll skip the formalities and dive right in. Annihilationism, a.k.a. "Conditional Immortality" vs. Eternal Torment, a.k.a. "ECT" or Eternal Conscious Torment.
Point by point. I'll start with a verse that some allege supports Conditional Immortality. Then you can refute it and give me a verse that others say supports eternal torment. This ...[text shortened]... h.
Obviously a translation of "torture" or "endless pain without dying" is out of place here.
should be concerned about. Because there is a 2nd death.
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Originally posted by @tom-wolseyYes, and end to life, equaling death.
I was planning on doing this verse by verse with discussion on each. You skipped my verse and went straight into all the verses you have. That's fine, but...
Anyway.
The verse above only says the fire is eternal. So I have no reason to even address it.
[b]Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into e ...[text shortened]... opposed to an eternal life. This, again, does not depict existence as eternal, for the wicked.
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeThis is a good one Duke have to ponder this one.
'These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.'
2 Thessalonians 1:9
Originally posted by @tom-wolseyI believe we have established that destruction is the end of life that lasts eternally, a very
Destruction that last eternally. Permanent destruction.
Destruction brings an end to something. Something that is destroyed ceases to exist. Eternally.
real eternal death? If we can agree to that, but now destroyed, that ceases to exist is not
where nothing of them remains any more is not quite the same thing. Can we agree on
that?
Originally posted by @kellyjayDo you understand what you write?
I believe we have established that destruction is the end of life that lasts eternally, a very
real eternal death? If we can agree to that, but now destroyed, that ceases to exist is not
where nothing of them remains any more is not quite the same thing. Can we agree on
that?
It appears to be jumbled up nonsense.
Originally posted by @rajk999Torture is not there, torment is. If you are going to complain at least do it following the
LOL .. good luck to you. Most people on this side of the issue have discussed this with KJ and he cannot see the flaw in his reasoning.
Two points that he cannot grasp-
Eternal punishment does not mean eternal torment
The Lake of Fire does not mean eternal torment.
discussion and complain about things actually said. Stop making them up!
Originally posted by @kellyjayYou lack clarity of expression. Your writing is vague and confused.
Torture is not there, torment is. If you are going to complain at least do it following the
discussion and complain about things actually said. Stop making them up!
That happens when a persons thoughts are unclear in his head.
Originally posted by @rajk999Nothing to add to the discussion, but insults. You are not vague or confused just not part
You lack clarity of expression. Your writing is vague and confused.
That happens when a persons thoughts are unclear in his head.
of the discussion, you are only here to insult people.
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Originally posted by @tom-wolseyGenesis 6:17
Destruction that last eternally. Permanent destruction.
Destruction brings an end to something. Something that is destroyed ceases to exist. Eternally.
For behold, I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life under heaven. Everything that is on the earth shall die.
Genesis 18:31
He said, “Behold, I have undertaken to speak to the Lord. Suppose twenty are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of twenty I will not destroy it.”
Mark 1:24
“What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God.”
1 Corinthians 5:5
you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 5:3
While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
I would say that if that were true, if something is destroyed it ceases to exist eternally
than every time that would is used that would be the result. The destruction for life I do
believe ends in death; however, the ceases to exist part, I don't think you have shown
that to be true, but we do agree I believe that this punishment is eternal. Right now we
are going over if that means because they stay in this state or it only lasts a few
whatever, seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, years, decades, centuries, or eternally.
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke2 Thessalonians 1:
'These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.'
2 Thessalonians 1:9
5 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— 6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. 11 To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
A few things after reading this in the context it was written in.
1. There are those that know the God, and those that do not.
2. There are those that are going to suffer punishment of eternal destruction away from
the presence of the Lord, this was said in context of those that do know the presence of
the Lord. With them when He comes He will be glorified in His saints.
3. The text shares with us that Jesus should be glorified in us now in this life, and we in
Him. This isn't something that just occurs in the next life, it starts in this one!
4. The prayer is that God may make us worthy of His calling, that we may fulfill every
good work in the faith by His power. (note: God in us is required for that now)